65-67 clad diagnostics

razzle

Is there a way to tell the sms coins from uncirculated business strikes?

LanLord

It seems the most reliable indicator is to look on the slab

GritsMan

See the post I just "ttt"d that begins "CladKing,..." Go to last page.

razzle

Gritsman and cladking,

Thank you both very much. When I looked for that thread earlier there was no response, this morning I asked again without looking. Sorry.
One reason I ask is that I think I have seen the SMS designation on some quarter slabs which makes me wonder if there was something besides the holder they came in.

RRich2004

<< <i>It seems the most reliable indicator is to look on the slab >>



Unless the SMS displays high qualities worthy of an exceptionally high grade, it wouldn't be slabbed.

cupronik

I've had 1967 quarters from original rolls come back from PCGS as 'SMS' not MS, and they wouldn't change the designation. These coins displayed no mirror finishes whatsoever. (These coins were graded in 2006 or 2007.)

Now, unless I've been ignorant these past 34 years, I've NEVER heard of the mint releasing SMS coins into circulation. What are you gonna do?

docg

I sent a 65 quarter MS66 in for regrade and it came back SP66! It was from an original roll. You would think they would pay attention!

19Lyds

<< <i>I sent a 65 quarter MS66 in for regrade and it came back SP66! It was from an original roll. You would think they would pay attention! >>

You should have returned that one pronto! Better yet, once the grade posted, you should have gotten on the horn and had it corrected before it ever shipped.

WoodenJefferson

About the only way I know of personally is if the SMS coins exhibit the slightest of differential between the devices and the fields, then it may very well be a SMS. It's obvious on SMS's that have cameo effects, but on those that were struck with wearing dies or substandard planchets, it gets difficult to determine which it is, business struck or SMS.

Jefferson nickels are the worst to determine, then the cent, dime, quarter with the easiest, the Kennedy half dollar. I guess the 40% silver struck up better than the other coins when it came to SMS but even they get hard to distinguish.

I have yet to find a 1964 SMS coin, I keep looking though.

hammered54

<< <i>I sent a 65 quarter MS66 in for regrade and it came back SP66! It was from an original roll. You would think they would pay attention! >>



would that quarter have come from one of the rolls I sold you ?
Matt.

cladking

SMS's were stuck under higher pressure by newer dies.

Anytime you see a well struck '65 - '67 or one that was made by new dies you have
to suspect it is SMS. There is an "SMS look" but not all SMS coins share it so any well
made coin might be SMS.

For the average collector this isn't very important because you can almost always tell
the difference. It's only when a regular issue is extremely nice that there's much of a
question and the services seem to take the conservative approach and call most of
these SMS.

In point of fact there aren't a lot of roll coins that come so nice anyway. These dates
just weren't saved in large numbers (except he '65) and a very low percentage are
so nice.

These SMS's were made in San Francisco and most of these dies were retired to coin
regular issues. So some of the S mint circulation strikes come from basined dies. It
gets pretty complicated for these years With several types everything being made.

The problem isn't so much you can't tell them apart as it is you can't prove it.

wondercoin

I believe Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of "hard core pornography" is the same standard used to determine 1965-67 SMS coins from business strikes... at least that is what I took from my in depth meeting with Rick Montgomery one day when he was President of PCGS and we spread out all of the 1965-67 SMS and BS coins on his desk. As I recall, from that meeting, it was agreed that PCGS would pull all of the "crazy high" BS grades from the pop report that week (and change them to SMS status) and require anyone who thought they had a true BS coin to send it back to PCGS so that it could be evaluated for the true BS status. As I recall, just -1- coin from the many, many coins that were changed to SMS ever got back into the BS category after that excercise was completed.

Wondercoin

hammered54

I know for a fact that "docg" coin was a BS.

cladking

<< <i>I believe Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of "hard core pornography" is the same standard used to determine 1965-67 SMS coins from business strikes... at least that is what I took from my in depth meeting with Rick Montgomery one day when he was President of PCGS and we spread out all of the 1965-67 SMS and BS coins on his desk. As I recall, from that meeting, it was agreed that PCGS would pull all of the "crazy high" BS grades from the pop report that week (and change them to SMS status) and require anyone who thought they had a true BS coin to send it back to PCGS so that it could be evaluated for the true BS status. As I recall, just -1- coin from the many, many coins that were changed to SMS ever got back into the BS category after that excercise was completed.
>>



Yes. "You know it when you see it".

It's kind of a shame that there aren't any positive markers (like New Zealand did) but
one can still search and collect the different looks of these. There's a huge range of
the SMS with some being quite rare and there's a huge range in the regular issues
even though the vast majority are poorly made junk.

SanctionII

The 1965-1967 SMS coinage is indeed a very fascinating area of the hobby.

The coins produced for these sets ranges from ugly to stunningly beautiful; and these coins have a wide range of surface characteristics. A sampling of all 15 coins [excluding varieties] that exist for these three years, with each of the 15 represented by multiple examples that each have different surface characteristics would make a great display at a coin club meeting, or a coin show, or an educational thread on the forums.

In addition to the core display decribed above, you could expand same by including examples of these 15 coins which:

1. haved toned;

2. would be considered recognized varieties [i.e. in Cherrypickers]; and

3. would be considered errors [i.e. I have die clashed 1965 SMS dimes].

To expand even further, you could supplement the displayed coins with a contrasting display of non SMS circulation strike coins for 1965-1967 [in rolls or singles] and compare the two types of coins side by side.

Though these coins are "Clad" and 40% silver, made after 1964 (and thus denigrated by many), they really make for a fascinating field of study.

Caleb

<< <i>Is there a way to tell the sms coins from uncirculated business strikes? >>



If you want a good laugh, you can always read this thread

leothelyon

<< <i>I believe Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of "hard core pornography" is the same standard used to determine 1965-67 SMS coins from business strikes... at least that is what I took from my in depth meeting with Rick Montgomery one day when he was President of PCGS and we spread out all of the 1965-67 SMS and BS coins on his desk. As I recall, from that meeting, it was agreed that PCGS would pull all of the "crazy high" BS grades from the pop report that week (and change them to SMS status) and require anyone who thought they had a true BS coin to send it back to PCGS so that it could be evaluated for the true BS status. As I recall, just -1- coin from the many, many coins that were changed to SMS ever got back into the BS category after that exercise was completed.

Wondercoin >>



Hi Mitch
Are you saying my coin has been relabeled as a SMS?





On topic; I have always suspected that 1965 to 1967 nickels/coins with mirror/prooflike surfaces to be
the SMS type and those with dull-like surfaces business strikes.

The problem with the 1965 to 1967 SMS and business strikes is similar to what happen with the
2005 to 2010 Satin Finish coins and the coins that were released into circulation for those years. It has been
assumed that used SMS and Satin Finish dies were used for striking the business strikes. If there was
a selection process where the best coins were used for the mint sets, instead of destroying those inferior
coins, they would have been released into circulation.


Leo

wondercoin

"Once you see the difference you will never forget it"

Actually, Coinking's remark mirrors Justice Potter Stewart's landmark analysis ... once you see "hard pornography" ... well you get the point.

Wondercoin

wondercoin

"Hi Mitch
Are you saying my coin has been relabeled as a SMS?"

Leo: Rick has not been President of PCGS for a very, very long time. You would have probably discovered the switch by now had that happened with your particular coin !!

Wondercoin

leothelyon

<< <i>"Hi Mitch
Are you saying my coin has been relabeled as a SMS?"

Leo: Rick has not been President of PCGS for a very, very long time. You would have probably discovered the switch by now had that happened with your particular coin !!

Wondercoin >>



I didn't really have a reason to look until now. I don't have a membership anyway.
I really don't know if I want to know.


Leo

Caleb

<< <i>These SMS's were made in San Francisco and most of these dies were retired to coin
regular issues. So some of the S mint circulation strikes come from basined dies. It
gets pretty complicated for these years With several types everything being made. >>



Cladking,

Do you have any evidence to support your thesis that retired SMS dies were used to coin regular issues? If so, I think we would all like to hear about it considering it would be valuable to the entire hobby. If this is just your opinion, I believe it is without merit and will explain my viewpoint later after reading your response.

cladking

<< <i>
Do you have any evidence to support your thesis that retired SMS dies were used to coin regular issues? If so, I think we would all like to hear about it considering it would be valuable to the entire hobby. If this is just your opinion, I believe it is without merit and will explain my viewpoint later after reading your response. >>



I've read all the '64, '65, and '66 mint reports (thanks to Phillyjoe) and didn't look
for or notice substantiation for this. I did watch the circulating coinage in those years
rather avidly and saw numerous anomalies. There were even issues right up through
'69 that had highly PL reverses.

I've see rolls that look like they might have been struck on regular presses from SMS
dies but, of course, there is no way to know for certain.

It should really be pointed out that mint set dies are just starting to really get broken
in when they are retired so it seems logical that they would be eused.

I believe I saw a mention by the mint that they were often reused but this was long ago
and my memory might be faulty on the issue.

It's certainly apparent they are reused and the fact that a few common mint set varieties
appear in circulation would seem to suggest it. Coins like the '68 DDO dime for example
are 6% in mint sets and rare in circulation. This is consistent with the use of retired mint
set dies.

I'm interested to hear your argument in any case though. You might get me to at least
research the issue a little.

leothelyon

Not only were the 1965 to 1967 business strikes difficult to distinguish from the SMS coins for those years, so were the 1968-S to 1970-S business strikes from the non- cameo proofs. When I think or remember something, I better get it posted before I forget.


Leo

leothelyon

Imagine that, not buying 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968-S, 1969-S, 1970-S nickels that have been certified as business strikes because they look too much like SMS products or proof coins. I've turned them down many times over the years but also got stuck with a couple when I didn't know better. How many of those certified business strikes out there are actually watered-down SMS products or coins struck from over-used SMS dies. Perhaps had an acid bath to make them look like business strikes. Calling up a dealer who responds with an over zealous answer when asked about a coin's luster only to hear me turn it down. It's a tough call, perhaps a waste of money but I'm not going to pretend that I have MS67 coins in MS67 holders or FS nickels where the steps are nicked or bridged up or business strikes that look like SMS products, so to speak. When does reality hit these type of collectors who are living in a fantasy-world with these kind of coins in their collections?


Leo

hammered54

having a bit of trouble understanding just what your trying to say.
really.

leothelyon

<< <i>having a bit of trouble understanding just what your trying to say.
really. >>



And here's how the Jefferson nickel series appears;

1938PDS to 1964PD Business strikes
1938 to 1942-P, 1950 to 1964, 1968-S to 1970-S Proofs
1965 to 1967 are SMS*
1968-D, 1969-D, 1970-D Business strikes
1968-S to 1970-S are Proofs**
1971PD to 2004PD Business strikes
1071-S to 2004-S Proofs
2005PD to 2010PD are Satins*
2011 to present Business strikes.
2011 to present proofs

* No business strikes were made for those years
** Because there are no D mint proofs, it's very likely
the US Mint made specific Master Dies to strike the circulating S Mint coins
for those years as well but yet it's difficult to tell the high end certified BS from low end proofs.

*We can only assume for now that the US Mint did or did not make any specific Master Dies to
strike the circulating coins/business strikes for those years.


Leo

relicsncoins

I believe the diagnostic for a 65 SMS is the die burn (maybe not the correct term) out near the rim behind Washington's head. It shows up in this photo as a lightly toned crecent.

LindeDad

Sorry but I still think the answer is "NO" there has never been a true diagnostic point that works for all the coins of these years that says a coin is a SMS or circulatiuon coin.

leothelyon

And you're saying that coin has been graded as a business strike? Correct?


Leo

relicsncoins

<< <i>And you're saying that coin has been graded as a business strike? Correct?


Leo >>



My coin?

cladking

<< <i>I believe the diagnostic for a 65 SMS is the die burn (maybe not the correct term) out near the rim behind Washington's head. It shows up in this photo as a lightly toned crecent.
>>



No. A significant percentage (~85%?) of the best '65 cameo quarters have
this but not all of them. I believe it's die polish that was intentionally added
though it might be a striking effect.

leothelyon

Here's a perfect example of the troubles I've had with the SMS nickels.
Here is a photo of a coin I thought would be a business strike and it does reside in a business strike holder but.....




....another recent picture of the coin is showing mirrors.



The reason why I resurrected this thread.

Leo

leothelyon

<< <i>I believe the diagnostic for a 65 SMS is the die burn (maybe not the correct term) out near the rim behind Washington's head. It shows up in this photo as a lightly toned crecent.



>>



The ANACS certificate says its a MS coin while you're suggesting it's an SMS.


Leo

keets

the main purpose of 1965-67 coinage was to thwart what the Government saw as hoarding by collectors/speculators. all three Mints struck coins bearing no MM and no special attention was paid to coins in collector sets issued for those three years. it's important to realize that business strike coins and SMS coins are essentially the same although the SMS issues can be distinguished when struck from fresh dies, that "look" getting better with each year. regarding the confusion of so-called "roll coins" being designated as SMS keep in mind that when the SMS sets were/are broken open for the Half-Dollar the other coins are seen as no more than face value.

just because you take a coin from a bank wrapper doesn't mean it isn't an SMS issue.

relicsncoins

<< <i>

<< <i>I believe the diagnostic for a 65 SMS is the die burn (maybe not the correct term) out near the rim behind Washington's head. It shows up in this photo as a lightly toned crecent.



>>



The ANACS certificate says its a MS coin while you're suggesting it's an SMS.


Leo >>



Yes, I believe it's an SMS coin. I'm not sure if ANACS designated SMS in 1981. Capt. Heneway could answer that.

keets

about that "die burn" your coin shows; if i'm not mistaken it is only from one obverse die which was over-polished, not representative of every 1965 SMS Quarter, and happens to be visble on some of the best frosted examples i've seen.

leothelyon

Imagine that, not buying 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968-S, 1969-S, 1970-S nickels that have been certified as business strikes because they look too much like SMS products or proof coins.

Here's an example of a 1969-S nickel certified as a business strike but yet looks like a proof.

The seller adds in his description; near cameo-like appearance

Even if the coin was sent in, still sealed in a mint set, how are we to know the coin wasn't struck from used proof dies?


Leo

cupronik

If the coin was still sealed in mint set packaging and was actually struck from used proof dies it still must be considered mint state. It would have been struck only once (instead of twice for proof issues.)

This is similar to matte-looking coins struck from 1913-17 where perhaps proof dies were put in use for business strike production after the proof run was finished that year. Over the years I've had Buffalo Nickels that were unusually detailed in strike with grainy, matte-like
surfaces that were designated as "mint state" by TPG's. These coins had an obvious different appearance from flashy lustrous BU
specimens. Perhaps these coins were struck once by prior proof dies.

leothelyon

And it's likely a few unused proof planchets were thrown into the mix when striking the circulating coins.


Leo