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1961 Topps baseball complete raw set

I know a guy who doesn't have any knowledge about grading with a 1961 Topps complete set that he bought raw about 8-9 years ago from a card shop in his area for around $3800. He says the cards are in very good shape, but since he's not the type who can easily decipher a 6 from an 8 from a 10, I'm not really sure what that means. I would guess most of the cards are probably EX to NM, but I really can't say for sure.

Obviously it's hard to judge value without scans, and he doesn't have a scanner. I might be able to get some iPhone pics of some of the cards in the next few days. About how much should this set be worth right now, assuming the price he paid 8-9 years ago was an accurate reflection of its true value at the time?

Comments

  • RonBurgundyRonBurgundy Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
    An EX-Mt on average set is about $3000-$3700, depending on condition of the stars, a set that averages NM or so with some of the key cards (esp. the high numbers) being NM-MT can be worth $4000-$5500.

    Ron Burgundy

    Buying Vintage, all sports.
    Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
  • That's about what I figured, but I wasn't sure. Would you consider it risky, based on the description I just gave, to buy it sight unseen for around $2100, give or take $100?

    I'd send all the key cards and any of the better condition commons for grading. I have little interest in the set. I'd mostly be doing it for profit, but also to learn and for the experience of buying a vintage set and flipping it for the first time.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Centering is all over the place on that set too.

    My guess is it's more like a VG/EX set (I hope I'm wrong)


    My set put together between 1980 and 2005 is an overall VG/EX set and I have a few PSA 7's in the mix.



    IMO it's a beautiful set.


    Good luck!


    Steve
    Good for you.


  • << <i>Would you consider it risky, based on the description I just gave, to buy it sight unseen for around $2100, give or take $100? >>



    Yes.

    Also, if he has $3800 into it, why would he be willing to sell it to you now for $2100?

    'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.'
    -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14

    *1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
    *Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
  • PiggsPiggs Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree the condition of the stars and high numbers is the first priority and then go from there.


  • << <i>

    << <i>Would you consider it risky, based on the description I just gave, to buy it sight unseen for around $2100, give or take $100? >>



    Yes.

    Also, if he has $3800 into it, why would he be willing to sell it to you now for $2100? >>


    Because he has since retired and doesn't have the same cash flow coming in compared to when he was working. He listed the set on ebay for $3000 and got no bids. Then he lowered the price to $2500 and got no bids. So he told me he'd go down as low as $2000 possibly. Also he has some health problems, and his sister, who is 10 years younger and is the named executor of his will, has told him that the first thing she's going to do is throw all his cards away after he dies. He told her not to do that because he has this 1961 set along with a bunch of modern complete sets from 1980-present. She doesn't care and doesn't want to invest any time selling the stuff, so she'll just throw everything in the garbage. He'd rather sell some of his collection now. I know this story about the sister sounds shady on its face, but this guy is highly respected in some circles. Considering the irrational behavior some people (i.e., women) are capable of, I find it believable. I'm confident that he would not intentionally rip me off. Whether he'll overgrade the cards in describing them to me because he's unfamiliar with modern grading standards is a completely different story, and that's what I'm concerned about.
  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can't you pay him a visit and see the cards in person?
    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
    http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/

    Ralph



  • << <i>Can't you pay him a visit and see the cards in person? >>


    Nice thought, but he lives about 1800 miles away!
  • The fact that there were no takers at $2,500 should tell you that your opportunity for profit is, at best, limited if you buy it at $2,100.

    I would insist on at least seeing scans or good digital pics of a few key cards in the set before making that kind of investment.
    'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.'
    -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14

    *1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
    *Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
  • CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092
    So he listed a $3000 set on ebay with no scans?

    Generally speaking I'm not in the habit of dropping 2-3 grand on something without seeing what it is I'm buying first.


  • << <i>So he listed a $3000 set on ebay with no scans?

    Generally speaking I'm not in the habit of dropping 2-3 grand on something without seeing what it is I'm buying first. >>



    I'm not 100% certain, but based on the information I've gathered, my conclusion is the same as yours. I think that's exactly what he did. I also don't think these listings were recent, but again, not 100% sure about that either.

    Thanks to everyone for the advice.
  • RonBurgundyRonBurgundy Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
    I'd have him list it on Ebay for $2100, then you can buy it via paypal and be protected.

    If it's truly an EX-Mt set, it's an easy flip. If it's a VG-EX set, you'd be lucky to break even.
    Ron Burgundy

    Buying Vintage, all sports.
    Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
  • JMDVMJMDVM Posts: 950 ✭✭✭
    Would he trust you enough to send it to you for inspection? Offer to pay for postage both ways if you decide not to buy it.
  • heritageheritage Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭
    Centering is all over the place on that set too.

    It sure is I'm working on the set also! The centering is driving me crazy..
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,351 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That's about what I figured, but I wasn't sure. Would you consider it risky, based on the description I just gave, to buy it sight unseen for around $2100, give or take $100?

    I'd send all the key cards and any of the better condition commons for grading. I have little interest in the set. I'd mostly be doing it for profit, but also to learn and for the experience of buying a vintage set and flipping it for the first time. >>

    I don't sell on ebay and make a pretty good living - and wouldn't dare consider jumping into the game buying a pig in a poke for 2100 clams.

    Since you put it out here - I will say - no way.



    << <i>Because he has since retired and doesn't have the same cash flow coming in compared to when he was working >>

    Is it for sale again on ebay?

    Maybe this is his business model - look desperate - "just retired" - and dump a load on someone else? Not sayin the guy is a crook - it's just ebay is a swamp with sharks swimming around IMO.
    Mike


  • << <i>Would he trust you enough to send it to you for inspection? Offer to pay for postage both ways if you decide not to buy it. >>


    That's a possibility. I sold him a refurbished laptop with some nice software on it that I'm shipping out to him on Monday, so once he receives it and sees how awesome it is, I should gain some credibility with him.



    << <i>Maybe this is his business model - look desperate - "just retired" - and dump a load on someone else? Not sayin the guy is a crook - it's just ebay is a swamp with sharks swimming around IMO. >>


    He wasn't trying to sell it to me. I don't think it's back on ebay right now. I know him from a different, slightly related (baseball-focused) hobby. We started talking about anything related to baseball, and I mentioned I've gotten back into collecting cards recently, and he mentioned he had this Topps set that he had been trying to sell at some point in the past. He didn't give me a hard sell or anything, and it wasn't the primary reason for the phone call. It wasn't planned, and he wasn't thinking of me as a potential buyer until I expressed interest in it.

    I'm generally distrustful of people and weary of potential scams, so I totally understand why the responses on this thread have geared me towards extra caution. But this is not one of those situations. Again, the guy is trustworthy, but I don't have much confidence in him to accurately describe the condition of the cards, because he admittedly doesn't have any experience with grading. So that's where I'm being cautious - not because I think there's any possibility he's being malicious or opportunistic.
  • SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭
    Have one of his grandkids take pics of the top 10 or 15 key cards and email or text them to you.

    "Molon Labe"

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,581 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<< but since he's not the type who can easily decipher a 6 from an 8 from a 10 >>>

    Based on the story, in my opinion this comment is likely incorrect.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,581 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><<< but since he's not the type who can easily decipher a 6 from an 8 from a 10 >>>

    Based on the story, in my opinion this comment is likely incorrect. >>




    <<< I'm generally distrustful of people and weary of potential scams >>>

    I agree with ya when it comes to money and people who ya don't really know...which is why I think there is a contradiction with the first comment.

    I'm not saying the guy is a scammer, but I am saying that like almost everyone else, he is saying whatever is necessary to try to get maximum value from his merchandise...and many out there who pretend to be a "babe in the woods", really are not.

    In any event, good luck and I hope it turns out well.
  • I would think that he could find someone he knows that has a scanner? It would be crazy to pay $2000 for something without some type of pic's.
  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Would you consider it risky, based on the description I just gave, to buy it sight unseen for around $2100, give or take $100? >>



    Yes.

    Also, if he has $3800 into it, why would he be willing to sell it to you now for $2100? >>


    Because he has since retired and doesn't have the same cash flow coming in compared to when he was working. He listed the set on ebay for $3000 and got no bids. Then he lowered the price to $2500 and got no bids. So he told me he'd go down as low as $2000 possibly. Also he has some health problems, and his sister, who is 10 years younger and is the named executor of his will, has told him that the first thing she's going to do is throw all his cards away after he dies. He told her not to do that because he has this 1961 set along with a bunch of modern complete sets from 1980-present. She doesn't care and doesn't want to invest any time selling the stuff, so she'll just throw everything in the garbage. He'd rather sell some of his collection now. I know this story about the sister sounds shady on its face, but this guy is highly respected in some circles. Considering the irrational behavior some people (i.e., women) are capable of, I find it believable. I'm confident that he would not intentionally rip me off. Whether he'll overgrade the cards in describing them to me because he's unfamiliar with modern grading standards is a completely different story, and that's what I'm concerned about. >>



    On a related note. I think he really needs to reconsider his choices in executors. If this is an early indication of how she plans on fulfilling his wishes, he's got issues in his future.
    ----------------------
    Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
    ----------------------

    Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq


  • << <i><<< but since he's not the type who can easily decipher a 6 from an 8 from a 10 >>>

    Based on the story, in my opinion this comment is likely incorrect. >>


    All due respect, but all the evidence points to the contrary. As I've stated, I understand why the normal general reaction here is to mistrust, but some of you guys never let up for even a minute. He has never owned a graded card in his life. I don't need, nor did I ask for, advice on how to deal with him personally or how to interpret little bits of information that he has given to me that indicate he is not a thief. All I asked for was advice on the potential value of the set, which I've received, and for which I am grateful. The reason I asked is because I wasn't sure what the range of values are for this particular set, and if it had turned out that he got a great deal when he paid $3800 and currently it would have been easy for me to flip a VG set for over $4000, then buying it for just over $2000 would have been a no-brainer. If that had been the case, I would have probably bought the set sight unseen. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, and now I'll have to wait for him to get scans or pictures or send it to me for inspection before I hand any money over to him. But that doesn't mean he's trying to squeeze me for more money than the cards are actually worth.

    If anything, I got the impression that if I'd lied and told him the market has collapsed and the set is only worth $1000 now, he might have sold it for $1000. That would have made ME the scammer and him the victim! Although I don't know him well, he is very well respected by a lot of people in another baseball-related hobby that I'm involved with, and I have no reason to distrust him. NONE. And this is coming from someone (me) who never trusts anybody! So let up on the attacks, and stop putting me in a position where I actually feel a need to defend him. Thanks.


  • << <i>Have one of his grandkids take pics of the top 10 or 15 key cards and email or text them to you. >>





    << <i>On a related note. I think he really needs to reconsider his choices in executors. If this is an early indication of how she plans on fulfilling his wishes, he's got issues in his future. >>


    I don't know a lot of personal details about the guy, but I got the impression that his sister may be his only DNA relation. I'm only speculating here, but it's possible that she'll be very good at executing his wishes when dealing with financial matters on paper, but just doesn't want to deal with physical possessions, since she probably learned from her mother over 50 years ago that baseball cards are a waste of time.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi CM

    How is the set stored? If it's in sheets?

    Ask him to take it to Kinkos - have it scanned and have the scans emailed to you. Tell him - when the deal goes thru - you'll reimburse him for the cost at Kinkos.

    Just a thought.
    Mike
  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Have one of his grandkids take pics of the top 10 or 15 key cards and email or text them to you. >>





    << <i>On a related note. I think he really needs to reconsider his choices in executors. If this is an early indication of how she plans on fulfilling his wishes, he's got issues in his future. >>


    I don't know a lot of personal details about the guy, but I got the impression that his sister may be his only DNA relation. I'm only speculating here, but it's possible that she'll be very good at executing his wishes when dealing with financial matters on paper, but just doesn't want to deal with physical possessions, since she probably learned from her mother over 50 years ago that baseball cards are a waste of time. >>



    LOL, probably so image... And sorry for any derailing I may have done here.
    ----------------------
    Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
    ----------------------

    Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'd have him list it on Ebay for $2100, then you can buy it via paypal and be protected. If it's truly an EX-Mt set, it's an easy flip. If it's a VG-EX set, you'd be lucky to break even. >>




    Or you could file a SNAD and have PP force him to take it back.


    image


    Good for you.


  • << <i>Hi CM

    How is the set stored? If it's in sheets?

    Ask him to take it to Kinkos - have it scanned and have the scans emailed to you. Tell him - when the deal goes thru - you'll reimburse him for the cost at Kinkos.

    Just a thought. >>

    Not a bad idea, but I didn't ask him how it's stored. Most likely I think the cards are probably in a 600-count box.

    My plan at this point is to move slowly. I'll wait for him to receive the computer I shipped out to him at Kinko's/Fedex this morning, and then I'll ask him to send me the set for inspection. Hell, I'd probably even offer him a $500 deposit to send it to me for inspection, with the understanding that I'd pay him the rest if I like the cards on arrival, or that I'd get the $500 back minus shipping costs if I don't.

    We haven't even established an exact price. All I know is that he said he'd possibly be willing to sell it for as little as $2000. I mentioned $2100 as an approximate figure, because the shipping is going to cost at least $15-20 considering the insurance it will require, and although I wouldn't be afraid to send him PP-gift, I'd want a large expense like this on a credit card so I can bump myself into a higher cash back rewards tier. Even though the PP fees would be 3% and I'd only get back 1% in cash back on this isolated transaction, I'd bump myself into the higher tier where I get 5% on gas and groceries and 1.5% on everything else for future purchases the rest of the year. I am truly a cheap ba$tard.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,581 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i><<< but since he's not the type who can easily decipher a 6 from an 8 from a 10 >>>

    Based on the story, in my opinion this comment is likely incorrect. >>


    All due respect, but all the evidence points to the contrary. As I've stated, I understand why the normal general reaction here is to mistrust, but some of you guys never let up for even a minute. He has never owned a graded card in his life. I don't need, nor did I ask for, advice on how to deal with him personally or how to interpret little bits of information that he has given to me that indicate he is not a thief. All I asked for was advice on the potential value of the set, which I've received, and for which I am grateful. The reason I asked is because I wasn't sure what the range of values are for this particular set, and if it had turned out that he got a great deal when he paid $3800 and currently it would have been easy for me to flip a VG set for over $4000, then buying it for just over $2000 would have been a no-brainer. If that had been the case, I would have probably bought the set sight unseen. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, and now I'll have to wait for him to get scans or pictures or send it to me for inspection before I hand any money over to him. But that doesn't mean he's trying to squeeze me for more money than the cards are actually worth.

    If anything, I got the impression that if I'd lied and told him the market has collapsed and the set is only worth $1000 now, he might have sold it for $1000. That would have made ME the scammer and him the victim! Although I don't know him well, he is very well respected by a lot of people in another baseball-related hobby that I'm involved with, and I have no reason to distrust him. NONE. And this is coming from someone (me) who never trusts anybody! So let up on the attacks, and stop putting me in a position where I actually feel a need to defend him. Thanks. >>



    Analyzing all these facts, actually does determine the "value" of a possible purchase. It's business, and a standard business principle is the "risk-reward ratio", determining the risk involved in a transaction, relative to the reward. That was my point - it wasn't an "attack".

    Good luck.
  • I understand where you're coming from, and in most situations like this, every little detail is important and can help piece together the actual truth of the matter. But that's all based on the presumption that the person is hiding something.

    In this case, the guy's inexperience and ignorance are genuine, which means any circumstantial evidence you use to piece together any sort of puzzle is irrelevant at best. When you continue trying to reconstruct the situation by attributing significance to details that in this particular case have none, you're indirectly questioning his intentions and my judgment of his motivation. I know you mean well, and in many threads like this, such analysis is beneficial, but not here, so please, it's not necessary.

    What we know, and ALL we know, is that he has a 1961 complete set that he purchased for $3800 around 2002-2003, and at some later point he attempted to sell it unsuccessfully for as little as $2500.

    Period.

    Anything else you try to conclude is pure speculation and conjecture, which is fine, but not if it is based on the premise that this guy is trying to take me for a ride, because I'm 100% confident that is not the case.
  • RipublicaninMassRipublicaninMass Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'd have him list it on Ebay for $2100, then you can buy it via paypal and be protected. If it's truly an EX-Mt set, it's an easy flip. If it's a VG-EX set, you'd be lucky to break even. >>




    Or you could file a SNAD and have PP force him to take it back.


    image >>



    now who on earth would do that
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I got the impression that his sister may be his only DNA relation >>




    I find that incredible.


    Steve



    Good for you.
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