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Many thanks to crypto79 for his advice and expertise concerning my 1877 Trade Dollar...it's now more
Goldbully
Posts: 16,858 ✭✭✭✭✭
Well, it all started when I posted a TrueView image of my colorful 1877 Trade Dollar on the forum back in November 2010. I received the following PM from crypto79:
“I love your 1877 Trade Dollar, If you ever are looking at selling it please let me know.”
GB: “Thanks for your offer, but for now that coin is a major keeper for me.
crypto79: “I would keep it too its about the most colorful and best struck 1877 I have ever seen. I would send it in to PCGS and get the very rare DDO FS-101 put on the holder if I were you.”
He then proceeded to educate me on this attribution................................
“The doubling is subtle but intense on the coin. If you don't have it in hand bring up the zoomed in Coin facts photo and follow along.
Main pick up points is the last 3 stars(the ones on the right) with the last one being indicative of which waty the spreed goes on the DDO
Next look at the liberty scroll in her hand and then look inside the letter you will see doubles and a good pick up point is the upper o in the letter B and the o in the R
next look at the incused letters in "In God We trust " and the bottom of the banner esp to the right of it.
All of the wheat stalks are doubled and so are the ropes ( just to the north) on the hay bail she is sitting on.”
There is also the diagnostic die crack on the REV above STATES OF
If you drew a line from the 8 in the date up to liberty's ass then over to the right making a box on the bottom right of the coin all of that is doubled and it is worth 20-25%ish more if you find a buyer.
these are some early pre-edits that todd is working form me on some new coins but if you scroll down you will see my 77 DDO with some very cool close ups of the doubling
blucc link
GB: I saw the die crack for sure.
I do see some doubling on Liberty.
Is that doubling on In God We Trust?
cryto79: yes note the missing top to the s & t in trust and the o part of the 4 in trust. also look and the ribbon on the bottom esp on the right side under the arrows at the edge. look at all of the bottom of the wheat stalks
Trust doubling
Star doubling too
GB: Man, you are amazing....I really appreciate your analysis.
Can you explain.....the o part of the 4 in trust
And also....look and the ribbon on the bottom esp on the right side under the arrows at the edge.
Also, I did not see anything special under the wheat stalks.
I've got major star doubling on the 4:00 stars!!!
Crypto79: I meant the o part in the letter R, if you look at the loop you will see a 2nd one.
the scroll/ribbon that "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on is a long rectangle with ribbon ends that have two small points/triangles at both ends. if you follow the bottom to the right you will see it split and have a double lip that gets wider to the right--that is doubling if you look at the two little points on the right side end on the picture you PM'ed to me it is clearly split on the bottom.
the wheat is tricky. There are twice as many stalks as there should be so looking at a normal one is a good start. But if you look on you PM picture on the bottoms you will see that they don't line up flat like they should on a normal coin. They are flat ,raised ,flat, raised and really close. that is doubling.
GB: Now I'm seeing it....Thanks again for your help.
I will definitely have PCGS attribute this coin.
Crypto79 went the extra mile for me, and I really cannot thank him enough for this wonderful experience in numismatics.
And the results????
Before:
After:
New Holder
PCGS Link
“I love your 1877 Trade Dollar, If you ever are looking at selling it please let me know.”
GB: “Thanks for your offer, but for now that coin is a major keeper for me.
crypto79: “I would keep it too its about the most colorful and best struck 1877 I have ever seen. I would send it in to PCGS and get the very rare DDO FS-101 put on the holder if I were you.”
He then proceeded to educate me on this attribution................................
“The doubling is subtle but intense on the coin. If you don't have it in hand bring up the zoomed in Coin facts photo and follow along.
Main pick up points is the last 3 stars(the ones on the right) with the last one being indicative of which waty the spreed goes on the DDO
Next look at the liberty scroll in her hand and then look inside the letter you will see doubles and a good pick up point is the upper o in the letter B and the o in the R
next look at the incused letters in "In God We trust " and the bottom of the banner esp to the right of it.
All of the wheat stalks are doubled and so are the ropes ( just to the north) on the hay bail she is sitting on.”
There is also the diagnostic die crack on the REV above STATES OF
If you drew a line from the 8 in the date up to liberty's ass then over to the right making a box on the bottom right of the coin all of that is doubled and it is worth 20-25%ish more if you find a buyer.
these are some early pre-edits that todd is working form me on some new coins but if you scroll down you will see my 77 DDO with some very cool close ups of the doubling
blucc link
GB: I saw the die crack for sure.
I do see some doubling on Liberty.
Is that doubling on In God We Trust?
cryto79: yes note the missing top to the s & t in trust and the o part of the 4 in trust. also look and the ribbon on the bottom esp on the right side under the arrows at the edge. look at all of the bottom of the wheat stalks
Trust doubling
Star doubling too
GB: Man, you are amazing....I really appreciate your analysis.
Can you explain.....the o part of the 4 in trust
And also....look and the ribbon on the bottom esp on the right side under the arrows at the edge.
Also, I did not see anything special under the wheat stalks.
I've got major star doubling on the 4:00 stars!!!
Crypto79: I meant the o part in the letter R, if you look at the loop you will see a 2nd one.
the scroll/ribbon that "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on is a long rectangle with ribbon ends that have two small points/triangles at both ends. if you follow the bottom to the right you will see it split and have a double lip that gets wider to the right--that is doubling if you look at the two little points on the right side end on the picture you PM'ed to me it is clearly split on the bottom.
the wheat is tricky. There are twice as many stalks as there should be so looking at a normal one is a good start. But if you look on you PM picture on the bottoms you will see that they don't line up flat like they should on a normal coin. They are flat ,raised ,flat, raised and really close. that is doubling.
GB: Now I'm seeing it....Thanks again for your help.
I will definitely have PCGS attribute this coin.
Crypto79 went the extra mile for me, and I really cannot thank him enough for this wonderful experience in numismatics.
And the results????
Before:
After:
New Holder
PCGS Link
0
Comments
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Why?
I did a thread on Secure Plus images.....they ain't too pretty!!
Click Here
<< <i>I just sent off 32 of my coins for Secure Plus... and TrueView too. I wish they would use the TrueView photo in lieu of the Secure Plus photo on the cert verification page! I don't want someone thinking my children are selling fake coins in the future. >>
They show the TrueView first....you click on the "additional image" link for Secure +
See my CBH
The holder should say: "Secure Plus" on the certification page....it's a PCGS glitch that they are working on.
<< <i>The only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors.
I suspect you're right but it is one of the reasons I collect Trades and their varieties because I think paying 1000s for a semi common 37 nickel with die polish is bit much for my tastes. That being said I can't see that good looking large seated type being harder to sell with a Doubled Obv.
It's a great coin Goldbully and well done,and of note it is a late die state with some of the doubling obscured like the ropes of the hay bail. You can see it a little of the top left rope but on a early die state there is no die crack on the Rev and the doubling is much more crisp. The MS61 in the POP reports is a PL EDS and belongs to our very own Keoj who is the real master TD varieties collector. The 58 (sad bottom pop) is mine.
While only assumptions; I think the fact that the dozen or so known of the Variety show a few different die states and most are higher end mean a few things can be extrapolated form that.
1: The die was not pulled form production for the error
2: Like the majority of the late production run of the series the balk of the production stayed in the USA or was held back as surplus.
3: A large percentage of coins that did not leave the US or that were withheld were later melted during the TD recalls over the next decade leading to a higher attrition rate then normal coinage and a disproportionate distribution among some die pairs. Some large mintage types and subtypes could have their entire mintage lost after being sent overseas or melted locally. There are some very rare Trade Dollars
4: I think the majority of the survivors of this type are the ones that entered collector channels sooner rather then later possibly due to the fact that they are some of the best struck for the date, some it could also be due to the only recent development that a circulated 77p Trade had any upside in a graded holder.
<< <i>
<< <i>The only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors.
I suspect you're right but it is one of the reasons I collect Trades and their varieties because I think paying 1000s for a semi common 37 nickel with die polish is bit much for my tastes. That being said I can't see that good looking large seated type being harder to sell with a Doubled Obv.
It's a great coin Goldbully and well done,and of note it is a late die state with some of the doubling obscured like the ropes of the hay bail. You can see it a little of the top left rope but on a early die state there is no die crack on the Rev and the doubling is much more crisp. The MS61 in the POP reports is a PL EDS and belongs to our very own Keoj who is the real master TD varieties collector. The 58 (sad bottom pop) is mine.
While only assumptions; I think the fact that the dozen or so known of the Variety show a few different die states and most are higher end mean a few things can be extrapolated form that.
1: The die was not pulled form production for the error
2: Like the majority of the late production run of the series the balk of the production stayed in the USA or was held back as surplus.
3: A large percentage of coins that did not leave the US or that were withheld were later melted during the TD recalls over the next decade leading to a higher attrition rate then normal coinage and a disproportionate distribution among some die pairs. Some large mintage types and subtypes could have their entire mintage lost after being sent overseas or melted locally. There are some very rare Trade Dollars
4: I think the majority of the survivors of this type are the ones that entered collector channels sooner rather then later possibly due to the fact that they are some of the best struck for the date, some it could also be due to the only recent development that a circulated 77p Trade had any upside in a graded holder. >>
That's what I'm talkin' about!!!!
<< <i>Surprised the coin didn't Plus >>
Me too!!!
Thanks for all the kind words guys....but crypto79 deserves all the credit!!
"Ron Guth: The 1877 Double Die Obverse Trade Dollar is a distinctive variety caused when the die was hubbed twice, with each punch slightly out of rotation from the other. The doubling is most visible on the letters of LIBERTY, on the top of the cotton bale upon which Liberty sits, the right end of the scroll (particularly under TRUST), and on the final star. Surprisingly, this variety does not command much of a premium despite its scarcity. PCGS has graded only four examples as of March 2011, three of which are Mint State, and the finest of which is a single MS-63."
Latest image from Todd....Baltimore Spring Show 2011
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>The only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors.
Believe it or not, the same was said for Bust halves, once.
TD varieties will be big someday. You can take that to the bank!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>The only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors.
Believe it or not, the same was said for Bust halves, once.
TD varieties will be big someday. You can take that to the bank! >>
How will that happen, Julian??
Thanks
Oh, and MJ.....crypto rocks big time on TD's!!!
<< <i>A big congrads and a gorgeous coin, also a big applaud to Crypto for being selfless! >>
I just looked at this beauty tonight....I cannot thank crypto enough for his honesty and expertise!!!
I believe this to be a wonderful coin forum story for other forum experts to mentor the US Coin forum populace.
My Trade Dollar Link
Working on a Trade Dollar varieties book at the moment......a year away.
keoj
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The only thing rarer than trade dollar varieties are trade dollar variety collectors.
Believe it or not, the same was said for Bust halves, once.
TD varieties will be big someday. You can take that to the bank! >>
How will that happen, Julian??
>>
As other collection sets soar in price (like Barber Halfs) It forces collectors of lesser means (like me) and who aren't as interested in type collections to go off and find more accessible sets. At some point people will realize that it is a rare but completable set of large, eye pleasing coins with a amazing history and several distinct collecting styles (chop,hub,varieties).
The biggest problems for the coins have been
1: early 20th Cen reputation, collectors looked down on these back in the day based off of their demonetization in the 1870s and it took a while to kill that Generation off.
2: They are actually rare save a few of them and people aren't inundated with exposure to them like Morgans unless you are at a Chinese flee market. This has also prevented most dealers from pushing them (classic well managed promotion effect) which does make a difference
3: Novices are scared of them and would rather build a collection of acid treated nickels/cleaned peace 1$s on a limb off of ebay then chance all of those counterfeits Trades they have heard about.
4: Complete lack of a solid reference guide. There is a serious lack of published research on these (exception of TDN's very nice and generous website but that is even somewhat outdated) but word on the street is our very own Keoj is burning the midnight oil on a Tell all titled "My life as a Trade Dollar groupie" (note; I have taken some liberties with the title)
Sign me up for an early release!!!!
<< <i>Julian,
Working on a Trade Dollar varieties book at the moment......a year away.
keoj >>
6 months and counting!!!!
<< <i>Julian,
Working on a Trade Dollar varieties book at the moment......a year away.
keoj >>
<< <i>Julian,
Working on a Trade Dollar varieties book at the moment......a year away.
keoj >>
6 months to go....looking forward to your book, keoj!
edited to add: sorry for the multi posts......things aren't as they seem on my poor pitiful part!!!
<< <i>Julian,
Working on a Trade Dollar varieties book at the moment......a year away.
keoj >>
Been a long year Joe!
Rob
Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON
Successful Purchases from: Manorcourtman, Meltdown
Thanks for sharing this and a big "hats off" to Crypto for this and other generous offerings he's made in the past.
It's actions and sharing and generousity like this that make this such a great forum!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
It's easy to recall his cool double holder of 1839-O and 1840[-0] halves,
and how he showed us the even more dramatic 1876-CC DDR Trade dollar
in this 2011 thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=817883&STARTPAGE=2
That's what I tried to portray in this thread. Thank you for the kind words. Glad you enjoyed.
Gotta love the board.
<< <i>
<< <i>Julian,
Working on a Trade Dollar varieties book at the moment......a year away.
keoj >>
Been a long year Joe!
We're all waiting....
What kind of variety is it?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I think Heritage has a PCGS 65 1877 Trade dollar coming up in their pre ANA auction
What kind of variety is it? >>
Your average Joe 1877 P Trade Dollar. Weakly struck and very pretty.
That's the nicest Trade Dollar I've ever seen.
Thank you Justlooking, glad you liked the coin so much.