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A quick before and after of my numismatic photography....
coinkid855
Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
Here's a good example of what some lighting and a better camera can do. The first picture was taken on my kitchen island with an Sony advanced point and shoot underneath a fluorescent fixture, the second with my D5000 and macro lens with halogens.
-Paul
-Paul
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-Paul
Edited to add: In reality, the halogen lighting is fading out the natural toning and bringing out the artificial toning.
Edited to add, to add:
<< <i>That's what confuses me... most homes have fluorescent lighting, which is the closest to natural lighting. Incandescent and halogen light bulbs can fade colors. If photo one is fluorescent lighting (natural lighting) and photo two is halogen (color fading lighting), how can photo two be closer to what the coin actually looks like in the real world (natural lighting)?
Edited to add: In reality, the halogen lighting is fading out the natural toning and bringing out the artificial toning.
Edited to add, to add:
The point is that if you have a poor setup, the results will be poor, too. Using ambient light will often result in a darker photo, or at least one that isn't head-on, while using lights specifically for photography will help better light a coin. In the real world, you get to rotate the coin to whatever angle you want to catch the best light. In a photograph, you have to get the lights right to mimic that view, it doesn't just come from being in a room and going "click."
As for your AT/NT comment, it is, of course, ridiculous. All of that color is fine, and the fact that any shades are bolder or weaker is just a function of the fact that in hand, some are stronger than others.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's what confuses me... most homes have fluorescent lighting, which is the closest to natural lighting. Incandescent and halogen light bulbs can fade colors. If photo one is fluorescent lighting (natural lighting) and photo two is halogen (color fading lighting), how can photo two be closer to what the coin actually looks like in the real world (natural lighting)?
Edited to add: In reality, the halogen lighting is fading out the natural toning and bringing out the artificial toning.
Edited to add, to add:
The point is that if you have a poor setup, the results will be poor, too. Using ambient light will often result in a darker photo, or at least one that isn't head-on, while using lights specifically for photography will help better light a coin. In the real world, you get to rotate the coin to whatever angle you want to catch the best light. In a photograph, you have to get the lights right to mimic that view, it doesn't just come from being in a room and going "click."
As for your AT/NT comment, it is, of course, ridiculous. All of that color is fine, and the fact that any shades are bolder or weaker is just a function of the fact that in hand, some are stronger than others. >>
It's not my comment... it came from the Westinghouse website. Those ridiculous Westinghouse folk!
If you mix light sources, your camera cannot completely correct for different color temperatures, so some colors on the coin will be emphasized at the expense of others.
As for:
That's what confuses me... most homes have fluorescent lighting, which is the closest to natural lighting. Incandescent and halogen light bulbs can fade colors.
The first two statements about fluorescent lighting are wrong.
The last sentence, about other light sources, refers to fading of colored fabrics and artwork.
The problem with fluoescents is that they don't have a smooth spectrum - they tend to be quite spikey. So some colors are disproportionally represented. White balance adjustments are approximate at best.
Halogens/normal lightbulbs have the advantage of having a smooth spectrum and that makes adjusting for the white balance more accurate.
<< <i>There is no such thing as "natural" lighting. The light you see outside your house comes in a variety of flavors depending upon the time of day, full sun, shade... i.e the color temperature vaies widely.
The problem with fluoescents is that they don't have a smooth spectrum - they tend to be quite spikey. So some colors are disproportionally represented. White balance adjustments are approximate at best.
Halogens/normal lightbulbs have the advantage of having a smooth spectrum and that makes adjusting for the white balance more accurate. >>
What he said.
-Paul
<< <i>The differences are not in the type of lighting, but in the size of the light source and the angle.
If you mix light sources, your camera cannot completely correct for different color temperatures, so some colors on the coin will be emphasized at the expense of others.
As for:
That's what confuses me... most homes have fluorescent lighting, which is the closest to natural lighting. Incandescent and halogen light bulbs can fade colors.
The first two statements about fluorescent lighting are wrong.
The last sentence, about other light sources, refers to fading of colored fabrics and artwork. >>
Which light bulbs are the closest to sunlight? The Westinghouse ReaLite™ fluorescent light bulbs...
Will incandescent light bulbs fade colors? Incandescent and halogen light bulbs can fade colors...
I'm just repeating what the Westinhouse website states. We all know that the effects of toning isn't natural... it's refraction of light on an object. When you look at a naturally toned coin in natural light, it appears dark. When you tilt it, the colors change... hence refraction. Natural toning of silver is dark, when you look "beyond" the darkness, you see the rainbow toning... hence refraction. Artificial toning isn't dark... hence artificial. That's what coin doctors know... if you use artificial methods to tone coins, you'll get a pretty rainbow. If you let a coin tone naturally, you'll get a dark (brown, black) coin. A naturally toned coin will appear darker in natural lighting and more colorful in artificial lighting (depending on which light you use... fluorescent adds green, incandescent adds yellow, etc.) Each type of lighting can emulate natural lighting, depending on the color refraction. If you look at a toned silver platter, silver teapot, etc., that's what a naturally toned coin should look like... anything else, is artificially toned. Even coins "naturally" toned in an album should have darker rim toning with color change toward the center. A naturally toned coin should tone darker (point of origination) to lighter (progressively away from origination). If a coin doesn't have a dark origin... it's probably artificial.
coinkid855s coin toned like silver should (a full obverse exposure to air - oxidation) with secondary toning on top of the oxidation with a point of origin around 3 o'clock with years of progressive toning outward from the origin.
Edited to add: In coinkid855s first photo... it shows the actual natural toning... in his second photo, it reveals the colorful secondary toning (which is artificial since it selectively shows only the market toning). My comment was... the first photo is what the buyer sees... the second photo is what the seller wants us to see.
<< <i>There is no such thing as "natural" lighting. The light you see outside your house comes in a variety of flavors depending upon the time of day, full sun, shade... i.e the color temperature vaies widely.
The problem with fluoescents is that they don't have a smooth spectrum - they tend to be quite spikey. So some colors are disproportionally represented. White balance adjustments are approximate at best.
Halogens/normal lightbulbs have the advantage of having a smooth spectrum and that makes adjusting for the white balance more accurate. >>
Of course there's natural lighting... it's just not consistent! Sunlight is natural... there's really no argument. I understand your point, but natural is natural. That's like saying there's no such thing as "natural" dirt since the composition of dirt changes by locality.
<< <i>Edited to add: In coinkid855s first photo... it shows the actual natural toning... in his second photo, it reveals the colorful secondary toning (which is artificial since it selectively shows only the market toning). My comment was... the first photo is what the buyer sees... the second photo is what the seller wants us to see. >>
I can't count how many toned coins I've photographed. The photos are colorful, as are the coins. Many times the drab photos come from catching a coin at the angle you wouldn't use when looking at it in hand.
<< <i>
<< <i>Edited to add: In coinkid855s first photo... it shows the actual natural toning... in his second photo, it reveals the colorful secondary toning (which is artificial since it selectively shows only the market toning). My comment was... the first photo is what the buyer sees... the second photo is what the seller wants us to see. >>
I can't count how many toned coins I've photographed. The photos are colorful, as are the coins. Many times the drab photos come from catching a coin at the angle you wouldn't use when looking at it in hand. >>
Or if you're using a diffused source, like my kitchen fixture. And of course you're only going to show the coin from it's best angle. Why wouldn't you?
-Paul
Your getting pretty good at this
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
shouldn't make a difference in the photo
if the white balance is set correctly
Just for a bit of further education for me, when you say you use halogen, what type of lamp set-up are you using? I have tried to get some good photos of a couple of toners I have and they come out about like your first photo. I used GE Reveal 60 watt bulbs in a desk type lamp. I want to show more of the color as your 2nd photo shows.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
George
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
Here is the same coin shot with the exact same lighting set up, camera, and lens. There is NO tweaking done to the pictures, they are as-taken. The only thing I did was tilt the coin.
<< <i>
Which light bulbs are the closest to sunlight? The Westinghouse ReaLite™ fluorescent light bulbs...
Will incandescent light bulbs fade colors? Incandescent and halogen light bulbs can fade colors...
I'm just repeating what the Westinhouse website states. >>
To answer these specific questions: Fluorescent bulbs come in a very wide (widest of all types of bulbs) of spectrums/colors. The bulbs cited (Realite) are very expensive. i have never seen a house lit by them. Typically they are used for aquarium/ plant grow lights.
if you are buying the $1.99 specials at home Depot you are NOT getting this performance.
Incandescent/Halogens fade colors by emitting ultraviolet light, which degrades the dyes in fabrics, etc.
<< <i>I definately like the 2nd photo the best.
Just for a bit of further education for me, when you say you use halogen, what type of lamp set-up are you using? I have tried to get some good photos of a couple of toners I have and they come out about like your first photo. I used GE Reveal 60 watt bulbs in a desk type lamp. I want to show more of the color as your 2nd photo shows.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
George >>
I'm using two PAR30 75W Flood bulbs. They put off a lot of light and also plenty of heat, unfortunately. But with all that light, you get a faster shutter speed. I'm assuming you don't have enough light and/or your lights are too low because the camera you are using has to be too close to the coin to get the angle high enough to bring out the color.
-Paul
Just to make sure we keep thing factual, toning is not a refractive issue. Toning is a thin-film reflection issue caused by differences in phase of the reflected components - the color is based on the thickness of the film.
I can't comment upon the original pictures because I am blocked. I imagine that they look nice...
<< <i> When you look at a naturally toned coin in natural light, it appears dark. When you tilt it, the colors change... hence refraction. Natural toning of silver is dark, when you look "beyond" the darkness, you see the rainbow toning... hence refraction. Artificial toning isn't dark... hence artificial. That's what coin doctors know... if you use artificial methods to tone coins, you'll get a pretty rainbow. If you let a coin tone naturally, you'll get a dark (brown, black) coin. A naturally toned coin will appear darker in natural lighting and more colorful in artificial lighting (depending on which light you use... fluorescent adds green, incandescent adds yellow, etc.) Each type of lighting can emulate natural lighting, depending on the color refraction. If you look at a toned silver platter, silver teapot, etc., that's what a naturally toned coin should look like... anything else, is artificially toned. Even coins "naturally" toned in an album should have darker rim toning with color change toward the center. A naturally toned coin should tone darker (point of origination) to lighter (progressively away from origination). If a coin doesn't have a dark origin... it's probably artificial.
coinkid855s coin toned like silver should (a full obverse exposure to air - oxidation) with secondary toning on top of the oxidation with a point of origin around 3 o'clock with years of progressive toning outward from the origin.
Edited to add: In coinkid855s first photo... it shows the actual natural toning... in his second photo, it reveals the colorful secondary toning (which is artificial since it selectively shows only the market toning). My comment was... the first photo is what the buyer sees... the second photo is what the seller wants us to see. >>
Based on these ridiculous statements, I feel compelled to ask this question.
Have you ever actually seen a rainbow toned coin?
However, I believe the PAR30 approach sacrifices some contrast on the reverse. You can see the nice, wide luster bands on the reverse photo, but much of the coin is at the same bright lighting level. There are only very narrow darker bands at 3 and 9 o'clock. If the coin has nice booming luster, I prefer narrower light bulbs (or 1 less flood light on) which results in narrower luster bands. Narrower luster bands give increased contrast between light and dark sections, which can help accentuate nice luster. JMHO.
That's a really interesting comparison.