What does "counterfeit" mean?
mgoodm3
Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
There have been repeated, quite ehated, discussions of counterfiets, replicas, copies, fantasy overstrikes out there and it seems to me that it all comes down to what is the definition of counterfeit?
I would suggest that it be:
A piece that looks sufficiently like a coin, issued by the legal authorities, that it could pass in commerce.
Do you have any better ideas? Do you define it by design elements, composition?
I would suggest that it be:
A piece that looks sufficiently like a coin, issued by the legal authorities, that it could pass in commerce.
Do you have any better ideas? Do you define it by design elements, composition?
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Comments
<< <i>This is another D. Carr thread isn't it? >>
Pawpaul and other flippers (oops....lovers) of those things will be along to defend them in this thread because everything is always about those things in 3....2.....1....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>This is another D. Carr thread isn't it? >>
Affraid so. SSDD.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sounds like the real thing to me.
How about a mgoodm3 quality photo of one??
bob
SO, if I put UNITED STATES OF AMERICA on a coin, say an 8c piece. Is that counterfeit?
Does a coin need to resemble a real issue to be counterfeit? I would suggest that it does. But then again, enough people out there think golden dollars are fakes that you may be able to pass off a 75c piece for real if the design is good enough.
By this definition, Carr 64-D dollars are not counterfeit. They mimic a coin that exists only in rumor, and Carr made sure to avoid potential charges of counterfeiting the dollar denomination by striking over actual Peace dollars as planchets. If using the penny squasher at souvenir stops is legal, then so should Carr's 1964-Ds be, unless the U.S. Federal government cares to make real 64-D dollars available. (Artie and the cast of Warehouse 13 would have a field day chasing them down...)
...Counterfeit Meaning and Definition
(n.) One who pretends to be what he is not; one who personates another; an impostor; a cheat.
(adv.) Assuming the appearance of something; false; spurious; deceitful; hypocritical; as, a counterfeit philanthropist.
(n.) That which resembles or is like another thing; a likeness; a portrait; a counterpart.
(n.) That which is made in imitation of something, with a view to deceive by passing the false for the true; as, the bank note was a counterfeit.
(v. t.) To imitate with a view to deceiving, by passing the copy for that which is original or genuine; to forge; as, to counterfeit the signature of another, coins, notes, etc.
(v. t.) To imitate, or put on a semblance of; to mimic; as, to counterfeit the voice of another person.
(v. i.) To make counterfeits.
(adv.) Representing by imitation or likeness; having a resemblance to something else; portrayed.
(v. i.) To carry on a deception; to dissemble; to feign; to pretend.
(adv.) Fabricated in imitation of something else, with a view to defraud by passing the false copy for genuine or original; as, counterfeit antiques; counterfeit coin.
If we were to use the fake iPod as an example. If the machine looks like an iPod and can be passed off as an iPod by a fraudulent seller, I don't care what operating system is inside. It is counterfeit. How much alike do they need to be before you consider the item counterfeit?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>To make a copy of, usually with the intent to defraud >>
How much does this "copy" need to look like the original. Many of the "contemporary" counterfeits out there are pretty crude copies of that which they are copying. What parts of the design determine the status?
Intent is always tricky since we don't know the intent that the creators had for a large majority of counterfeits out there. We know they made them, but not why. Maybe they all had good intentions.
I know thatr it isn't kosher to make high resolution scans of US currency, whether or not I plan on using them fraudulently.
Gary
Eric
<< <i>Could you all please take a Valium with regards to Daniel Carr and his 1964 D Peace Dollars. This is well past, 'beating a dead horse'. In fact, this borders on morbidity.
Keep the 64D out of this. I am trying to conduct a serious conversation about counterfeit coins.
I think that we know who really needs a little Valium...
<< <i>
<< <i>To make a copy of, usually with the intent to defraud >>
How much does this "copy" need to look like the original. Many of the "contemporary" counterfeits out there are pretty crude copies of that which they are copying. What parts of the design determine the status?
Intent is always tricky since we don't know the intent that the creators had for a large majority of counterfeits out there. We know they made them, but not why. Maybe they all had good intentions.
I know thatr it isn't kosher to make high resolution scans of US currency, whether or not I plan on using them fraudulently. >>
Many counterfeits thrive on brand name alone without even trying to fully duplicate the product itself.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>Many counterfeits thrive on brand name alone without even trying to fully duplicate the product itself. >>
Somewhat difficult to apply that to coins. You could say that the type of denomination is a brand. I think that if you made a 25 peso piece that looks like a washington quarter, it would be much harder to pass off. If I make a coin that looks superficially like a cent and says 1 cent, you could probably pass it off.
Although I have my own thinking on this, what do people here think is the difference between a fantasy and a counterfeit?
<< <i>This is an interesting question. When the whole 64-D thing first came up I was wondering what the term "fantasy" meant in a numismatic context. I thought I knew but I found that many were using it in a context I did not understand. I went on-line to a number of different numismatic glossaries and found there was no real agreement on a definition.
Although I have my own thinking on this, what do people here think is the difference between a fantasy and a counterfeit? >>
Fantasy coin was never officially minted, while a counterfeit coin is a copy of an officially minted coin.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>This is an interesting question. When the whole 64-D thing first came up I was wondering what the term "fantasy" meant in a numismatic context. I thought I knew but I found that many were using it in a context I did not understand. I went on-line to a number of different numismatic glossaries and found there was no real agreement on a definition.
Although I have my own thinking on this, what do people here think is the difference between a fantasy and a counterfeit? >>
Fantasy coin was never officially minted, while a counterfeit coin is a copy of an officially minted coin. >>
Thatis one proposed definition.
Others might say that a fantasy coin bears a design that was never officially minted, while a counterfeit coin is a copy of a design that was officially minted.
Still others would say that minor differences of a design, such as the date, would not keep a counterfeit of that design from being considered a counterfeit. Nobody would call an 1841-dated Capped Bust half dollar struck on a german-silver disk a fantasy because that design was discontinued in 1839. People would call that 1841-dated piece a counterfeit.
The gold quarter is not counterfeit, just plated. Would need more to pass such as having "quarter eagle" instead of "quarter dollar" on the rear
<< <i>There have been repeated, quite ehated, discussions of counterfiets, replicas, copies, fantasy overstrikes out there and it seems to me that it all comes down to what is the definition of counterfeit?
I would suggest that it be:
A piece that looks sufficiently like a coin, issued by the legal authorities, that it could pass in commerce.
Do you have any better ideas? Do you define it by design elements, composition? >>
Counterfeiting used to be making your own money and putting it into circulation for a monetary gain.
<< <i>Do we still call gold plated Libery nickels "Racketeer nickels"? After all, the mint never made $5 gold peices that even closely resemble anything the mint put out. >>
Do we call them Racketeer nickels, or are they Racketeer nickels? What about nickels plated to look like Racketeer nickels? This thread makes me think it's time for a song.
"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.
"It's long," said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it--either it brings the tears into their eyes, or else--"
"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.
"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddock's Eyes'."
"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.
"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man'."
"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called?'" Alice corrected herself.
"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways and Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"
"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.
"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting on a Gate': and the tune's my own invention."
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