MS Seated Halves - Pricing and rarity - questions

clackamas

I am looking to buy a type seated half, I do have a specific year in mind. I have one that has come up for sale. How do you price these, I see the PCGS price guide, and the price offered is more than the quide by a couple of hundred dollars, but still a sub $2K coin. It is also more than auction prices, but those are not that common and the nearest one was a grade higher and a year ago. They do seem to be scarce in MS grades, judging strictly by the graded population. The one I am looking at is a POP 9/7. It looks like it is fairly graded, no plus but also not in a coffin. I have not really been looking hard, but one only seems to come up every few years. Are these the types of coins you just need to get when they are offered? How is the market on these? I would think that the market would be softer right now versus a few years ago.

RYK

There are two MS seated halves on the market that have tempted me, for type purchases:

This 1861

and

the 1859 here.

I am partial to No Motto dates, PCGS/CAC, and coins with an original skin. Price guides are a guide, not the law. If you peruse Heritage archives, you will see a wide range of both prices and appearances for the grade. The market always seems strong for coins that are nice for the grade.

coinlieutenant

Need to know that date and see the coin. Generality might not be your friend at this point...

Sonorandesertrat

I agree with RYK. Look for a no motto coin; it will hold its value more than a late-date Seated half.

roadrunner

Depends on the date, grade and price. Many S and P mint with motto halves are relative sleepers still (1866-1873). And you can still cherry pick some R6 and R7 varieties in MS from 1875-1877 for almost no premium. I've loved the 1872-s in Unc since the mid-1970's. The 1870-s might be even tougher. The 71-s in full blown choice unc is no slouch. The majority of the "unc" S mint halves from 1866-1873 tend to come with lots of friction on Liberty's leg. A real rounded leg with full luster is a darn nice coin. I'd take any S mint half from 66-72 over the early but more common no motto halves. It depends on the date. Yeah, no motto coins are a lot tougher in gem, but in choice grade there really aren't all that many type collectors than need them. It's the no question gem NM halves that get the attention. There are just too many MS64's of 1856-0, 1857, 58, 59, 61, etc. for them to get pricing traction. The pre-1852 dates are a different story. None of those are common in choice condition except possibly the 1840-P. And even those are neat because they are so early.

Feel free to PM me as I'm not competition for you on any coin you may be considering. There are some very worthwhile dates in this series and others not so worthwhile. I love a lot of the dates in the 1840's in MS63 or better. The 1857-0 in choice 64 is a great coin considering there is yet to be slabbed a legit 65. The Civil War Philly dates tend to have a strong following even if they tended to be saved in choice or gem condition. Many great coins among the S mint runs from 1855 to 1874...my favorites. Out of the Evergreen coins I picked up an NGC 64 1875-s that had a small-wide S. WB-104 is listed as R-7+ in unc. Even if it isn't that scarce there's no downside. And in the 9 yrs since I bought it, I haven't run across another one though I haven't been looking exceptionally hard either. Their time will come.

The only keen competition in this series seems to come with the pop 1 or 2's where the very few gem set collectors are competing against each other. There are quite a few MS63/64 1857-0 halves graded...but very few of those have full blown luster, zero rub, and original surfaces. A cherry 64 is underpriced because there are others slabbed. When a real 65 shows up someday, the big guns will battle it out. I also love all the early O mints, 1840-1852. Neat coins. 1850 and 1851 as well. There are also some neat and rare Wiley-Bugert die varieties in the 1856-1859 coinage that can be cherried for nothing. It 5-10 yrs they might have a following. It's not often you can buy rarity for nothing.

roadrunner

TPRC

<< <i>There are two MS seated halves on the market that have tempted me, for type purchases:

This 1861

and

the 1859 here.

I am partial to No Motto dates, PCGS/CAC, and coins with an original skin. Price guides are a guide, not the law. If you peruse Heritage archives, you will see a wide range of both prices and appearances for the grade. The market always seems strong for coins that are nice for the grade. >>


I have to agree here. I have seen the former coin but not the latter. Both look very nice.

TomB

Choice, attractive Seated halves are tough and the No Motto halves are definitely tougher coins and more worthy of a premium, in my opinion.

COALPORTER

1840s halves in lower MS grades are not that rare - compared to quarters !.

roadrunner

If you consider FULL mint state in the lower grades (zero knee and wing rub, full luster) it might be hard to separate the 1840's quarters from the halves. They all tend to be rubbed up to about MS63, sometimes 64 as well....hey...just like bust halves....lol. It's in full blown MS65 where the quarters blow by the halves from the 1840's. You can probably eliminate at least 50% or even 75% of the MS65's in holders as nothing but glorified 64's. Real gem 65 early seated quarters are off the map. None are common. The halves aren't that far behind if you want relatively few marks, scuffs, and hairlines. As I said, only the 1840 is available. Every other date half in the 1840's is probably a R7+ to R8 in gem...and that might be a tad conservative. Many dates might only have 1 or 2 true gems known. I owned a killer orig 1846 Tall Date back in 1988 (NGC65) but didn't at the time know that the variety was much tougher than the regular dates in gem. But it probably wouldn't have mattered either. In fact no one cared and no one would have paid a premium back then. I sold it for type coin money ($4200) and truly regret that decision. The market stunk in spring 1988 and you were lucky if you could sell anything. 6-12 months later the world looked totally different. It wasn't until the last 5 yrs where things like 1846-P TD halves started being recognized for what they were.

My first love were MS 1840-1849 unc quarters. The only problem was that in the 1980's they almost never showed up in choice unc, let alone gem. I never found one to buy. It was a disappointing 10 yrs. The price guides casually listed them in gem. And if one did show up I'd bet it would have been available for $4,000 in 1983-1985 and probably $15,000-$20,000 by 1990.

roadrunner

66Tbird

Nice summation roadrunner, thank you for the future ref.. Wish I would of know that when I looked for my type piece. Would of saved me months of research. In the end I found a pretty 73 No Arrows PCGS MS-63 Closed 3 pop 10/11 with full pl surfaces for a tad over 1k. That coin filled both my ms and pr in the seated 50¢ type. Great series, wish I had deeper pockets.

roadrunner

Now that I know the date........I'd say wait for the 64. Even with a pop of a dozen or more pieces between both services that's probably higher than the number of MS63 set collectors out there. You can't always go by the pops either as some dates are greatly skewed by one 63 or 64 coin being tried 5-10X for an upgrade. I see this occasionally in the seated halves. The 57-0 half in 63 seems to have that issue.

I wouldn't pay PCGS price guide on most better dates as they tend to be high. And I don't these inbetween grade coins right now are that liquid (62-63)....not unless priced closer to CDN which usually tends to be much lower than PCGS PG. PCGS price guide if full retail on most dates. It's only on the really tough dates where I'd be ok paying price guide or higher....such as on a 70-s half. Go try and find a decent unc of one of those.

roadrunner

rhedden

If you think Seated halves are tough in MS, just try finding the "PCGS AU58" sliders that are the current market darlings in just about every classic coin series. They are just about GONE from the market, except for the most overpriced and low-end coins. Often, these are no different than the slabbed MS63s with friction on the leg. I wish I had the foresight to buy this kind of coin in the 1990s.

MikeInFL

<< <i>the 1859 here >>



I really like than 1859 too.

clackamas

I passed on the coin that I had the question about. I will keep looking, specifically I am looking for an 1868 P and S.