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1915-D buffalo nickel....MS-64, what?

crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I've picked up a 1915-D buff that I feel is a superb strike with great luster and full details, very close to blemish free, looks at least a 65 to me, just beautiful. Well it came back from pcgs as a ms-64, what a disappointment this is. I've been collecting these buffs for years and every now and then this happens to me. So, what do ya do? Send it back and hope for a +? Here is an image of the coin in question, comments are welcome. Thanks for any input....Joe

imageimage
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

Comments

  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    image
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    I would crack it out and resubmit! A very nice coin IHMO. I don't see anything that would keep it from gem status unless the luster isn't all there.
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

    Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
  • TonedRaritiesTonedRarities Posts: 484
    why worry about what the holder says? Leave it where it is and spend the money on something else, like more coins image
  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭


    << <i>why worry about what the holder says? Leave it where it is and spend the money on something else, like more coins image >>




    Big price difference I believe. I haven't looked at the price guide but usually a big difference between 64 and 65.

    edited to add....plus wouldn't you want your coins graded properly for the long term?
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

    Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
  • ponderitponderit Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I would crack it out and resubmit! A very nice coin IHMO. I don't see anything that would keep it from gem status unless the luster isn't all there.

    >>

    image ... it wasn't your day in the grading room
    Successful BST transactions with Rob41281, crazyhounddog, Commoncents, CarlWohlford, blu62vette, Manofcoins, Monstarcoins, coinlietenant, iconbuster, RWW,Nolawyer, NewParadigm, Flatwoods, papabear, Yellowkid, Ankur, Pccoins, tlake22, drddm, Connecticoin, Cladiator, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>image >>



    image That's funny as hell! Maybe that's it! I need Johnny....
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This coin was a GREAT find at any rate. I know this guy, older than me even, that has a LARGE collection of buffs, and he likes me! We share the same interests, mainly buffalo nickels, and every now and then I get to buy one. This is one of his coins, they're all raw in coin albums.....old school.
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    Perhaps the obverse strike is too weak? The feather appears to blend into the hair, unlike the 65 shown in their Photograde:

    64:
    image

    65:
    image
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • rld14rld14 Posts: 2,390 ✭✭✭


    << <i>image >>



    imageimageimageimageimageimageimage
    Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Perhaps the obverse strike is too weak? The feather appears to blend into the hair, unlike the 65 shown in their Photograde:

    64:
    image

    65:
    image >>



    The obverse of the 15-D is as strong as it gets, for sure. Take a look at this 67 for comparison....

    imageimage
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • capecape Posts: 1,621 ✭
    The obverse carries 60% of the grade and with the large image I see at least 6 ticks on the obverse which counts down from 70 resulting in a 64. This is still a gorgeous coin!
    ed rodrigues
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The obverse carries 60% of the grade and with the large image I see at least 6 ticks on the obverse which counts down from 70 resulting in a 64. This is still a gorgeous coin! >>



    That's some great information! But I only see 5 very tiny one's, and the image is a large as a dinner plate!! image
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    What about the lighter area on the Indian's brow and a few similar areas on the reverse? Depending upon what they were caused by, they could account for the assigned (rather than a higher) grade.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What about the lighter area on the Indian's brow and a few similar areas on the reverse? Depending upon what they were caused by, they could account for the assigned (rather than a higher) grade. >>



    image I'm sure no pro at grading, never claimed to be! It's just sometimes, like with this coin, comparing to others in 65 grades, seems a bit confusing at times how the graders come to their conclusions. This could very well be a 64 technically, but I have seen technically the same coin in higher grades. The over all appearance of this coin, even with the minor ticks that are visible in these images that are the size of a dinner plate, in my opinion is nicer than the grade assigned. Thank you for your input Mark, I know you know what your talking about and I respect your opinion......Joe
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joe, i'd have to agree with Cape and say that it isn't about strike, the grade reflects the contact marks on the coin. keep in mind that a grader will see everything and i think if you look at it objectively you'll notice what you may have missed prior to submission. as it is the coin is nothing to be ashamed of and the "Collection" is shaping up nicely based on what you let us see. is there any chance you can make a collage of individual dates for our viewing pleasure??
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are there reverse rim issues from 5 to 9:00?

    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The obverse carries 60% of the grade and with the large image I see at least 6 ticks on the obverse which counts down from 70 resulting in a 64. This is still a gorgeous coin! >>




    That is not how it works, they don't count the amount of ticks and deduct a point per tick.
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

    Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
  • capecape Posts: 1,621 ✭
    Tdec 1000, I have had great success in Upgrades with this philosophy ...... remember I'm only trying to HELP 1image
    ed rodrigues
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The obverse carries 60% of the grade and with the large image I see at least 6 ticks on the obverse which counts down from 70 resulting in a 64. This is still a gorgeous coin! >>


    What about the lighter area on the Indian's brow and a few similar areas on the reverse? Depending upon what they were caused by, they could account for the assigned (rather than a higher) grade.


    Joe, i'd have to agree with Cape and say that it isn't about strike, the grade reflects the contact marks on the coin. keep in mind that a grader will see everything and i think if you look at it objectively you'll notice what you may have missed prior to submission. as it is the coin is nothing to be ashamed of and the "Collection" is shaping up nicely based on what you let us see. is there any chance you can make a collage of individual dates for our viewing pleasure??


    Tdec 1000, I have had great success in Upgrades with this philosophy ...... remember I'm only trying to HELP 1

    I just want to thank all who have inspired me to be a better collector, it means more than I can say. This forum has helped me grow and has really done a lot for my collection with buffalo nickels. It's just a lot of fun to exchange thoughts and images of a hobby that we all seem to love so much. I just want to give a very heart felt thank you to all on this forum....Joe

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • capecape Posts: 1,621 ✭
    Joe, you have a great eye for some great coins!
    ed rodrigues
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The obverse carries 60% of the grade and with the large image I see at least 6 ticks on the obverse which counts down from 70 resulting in a 64. This is still a gorgeous coin! >>

    That methodology doesn't take other grading considerations (such as strike, luster, etc.) into account. Nor does it allow room for different sizes and/or locations of marks to have differing impact on the grade.

    Are you saying that if there were 4 more marks, the coin would/should have graded MS60? Or that if there were 5 fewer, it would/should have graded MS69? I think not. If only grading were that precise and easy. But all of the preceding not withstanding, I know you are a sharp grader.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice Buffalo, Joe! A beauty.

    And I really like your newest images. No glare, right color for the gasket, not overly saturated. Terrific!
    Lance.
    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • deltadimemandeltadimeman Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭
    i think without the gold toning it's a 5 ! if i really believe in a coin and don't get the grade , i crack it and resubmit ! works for me !
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,260 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joe,
    My first impression was nice coin, I would have guessed 65 based on the image. The luster on the obverse looks subdued in a few locations to me but that may only be the photo. Also, the mark on the eyebrow is pretty well-hidden but I wonder if it is large enough to be seen even without magnification. The hair definition on the buffalo head (particularly west of the horn) is very nice but not quite full. I am just trying to find reasons why the graders assigned a grade below 65. In the end, my guess is you got a really nice coin that was very close to the next grade up.

    Any guess what is going on underneath LIBERTY?

    Thanks for posting and the lively discussion that follows. Cape knows a whole lot about buffalos but I'm with Mark and Tdec in not quite following the comment about six obverse marks results in a 64.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really like that 15-D for a MS64... Nice Rim Cud too! image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • JupitarCoinsJupitarCoins Posts: 2,595 ✭
    I would have given it a 64+ if it wouldnt go 65.
    I still believe it should have gone 65.
    Sorry to hear about it. I would resubmit imo.
    Very nice looking coinimage
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  • kurtdogkurtdog Posts: 1,456
    I'm with the crackout and resubmit crowd. Understand that those light hits it took are only among the factors to be weighed in the assessment of the overall market grade, and aren't dispositive, in and of themselves, of anything. That coin has a lot going for it. The worst you can possibly come out is another MS64.

    The best is, they might get it right. image
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    What about the planchet separation at 8 O'Clock on the reverse, any worse and it could get bagged.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What about the planchet separation at 8 O'Clock on the reverse, any worse and it could get bagged. >>



    That's a lil rim cud the buffalo is grazing on! image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,071 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What about the planchet separation at 8 O'Clock on the reverse, any worse and it could get bagged. >>



    That's a lil rim cud the buffalo is grazing on! image >>



    image I thought it was one of the cool parts of this pretty lil Buff....
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭
    Is there a cut in the middle of Indian's hair? Or is that part of the design?
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    The hits on the Indian's cheek and neck are a concern, but I've seen 65's that looked worse. You might give it one more try with the graders.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just don't see gem luster in that pic. The 67, however, is dripping with it.
    Early Dollar Set
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That methodology doesn't take other grading considerations (such as strike, luster, etc.) into account. Nor does it allow room for different sizes and/or locations of marks to have differing impact on the grade.
    Are you saying that if there were 4 more marks, the coin would/should have graded MS60?

    you need to consider that he was being a bit facetious with the "6 tick" grading method.
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭


    << <i>why worry about what the holder says? Leave it where it is and spend the money on something else, like more coins image >>



    Agree..that's why prices can vary at major auctions 50% to 300% for the "same" grade. Educated buyers are actually paying for the coin, not the slab or some worthless sticker. Imagine that.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com

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