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Weird Counterfeit Half Dime - Dime Sized -Bad Condition
Jyes
Posts: 5
Reason for the post is I am trying to find out how what appears to be a pewter based counterfeit of a Half Dime that is the thickness of a Dime and the diameter of a dime happened.
I have posted this on the Colonial Coin Collectors forum, in hope that with their knowledge of counterfeits, since many colonials are would help in finding out "How was this done".
Suggestions that it was hammered between pieces of leather and hammered between two hardwood boards does not hold water since it is a thicker than a half dime. It would have had to been thinner, and if made of pewter based metal,not sure it could be done with that.
I do believe it is contemporary counterfeit based on the location found along with other coins found there.
I spent a lot of time trying to do Specific Gravity tests, which on something so small proved challenging to me with my digital scale, but after at least 6 readings on each of the samples in the photo, I feel confident in saying the SG is without a doubt not indictive of a normal silver dime or half dime. I then put the comparison coins under the metal detector which measures a conductivity of metal and as you can see the two legit Half Dimes are reading the same, but the dime in question has a much lower Conductivity reading which is confirming it is not silver but more of a base medal, like a pewter mix.
Again, I know it looks like heck, but I am intriqued on how this was made.
I have posted this on the Colonial Coin Collectors forum, in hope that with their knowledge of counterfeits, since many colonials are would help in finding out "How was this done".
Suggestions that it was hammered between pieces of leather and hammered between two hardwood boards does not hold water since it is a thicker than a half dime. It would have had to been thinner, and if made of pewter based metal,not sure it could be done with that.
I do believe it is contemporary counterfeit based on the location found along with other coins found there.
I spent a lot of time trying to do Specific Gravity tests, which on something so small proved challenging to me with my digital scale, but after at least 6 readings on each of the samples in the photo, I feel confident in saying the SG is without a doubt not indictive of a normal silver dime or half dime. I then put the comparison coins under the metal detector which measures a conductivity of metal and as you can see the two legit Half Dimes are reading the same, but the dime in question has a much lower Conductivity reading which is confirming it is not silver but more of a base medal, like a pewter mix.
Again, I know it looks like heck, but I am intriqued on how this was made.
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Comments
Given the state of the piece (i.e. coin or counterfeit) it is very difficult to discern authenticity based on details alone.
The date appears accurate for authentic coins, and dates are often, but not always, distorted in contemporary counterfeit pieces.
The piece also appears to have been in the ground for quite some time, where other elements could have become embedded within the
composition of the coin itself, especially easily given the porous nature of the current specimen.
This information leads me to believe that it is an authentic coin that was recovered from the ground after being buried for ~100 years.
The FER and COND might be giving inaccurate results based on this information.
But, I digress until other hypotheses are made present
My take, might very well be wrong.
bob
<< <i>Coin was in a fire. Heat expanded the metal and gave it that horrid look.
My take, might very well be wrong.
bob >>
That would explain the "gas bubble" on the obverse, indicative of many silver coins which have found their way in a fire
I have seen some silver half dollars that survived the Great Chicago Fire in a large steel vault at the Post Office building. The coins are a bit larger than standard.
Not sure what effect this would have on specific gravity, but logically if you have the same weight of metal taking up a larger volume the s.g. should be lower.
TD
Edited to add: Dang! Took me too long to type!
Then it was buried and became porous and thicker, the surface you see may be mostly corrosion.
Sort of a mix of all of the theories given.
I have seen Pewter compostion based counterfeits have bubbles from trapped gasses during the casting, so perhaps that is a possibility. Again, since the quality of Pewter can be so different than other pewter that is one reason I will not rule out it being pewter base mixture. I do have a rotten Pewter Bust Half Dollar and a rotted Pewter King George II Halfpenny, both are a low quality pewter that is rotting away and had to be sprayed with lacquer to preserve.
Another possibility to explain the "fire damage look", it could have been done after the coin was already made and becuase someone got snookered
My SG test was done by weight measuring, I did many attempts before I felt satisfied I was getting standard results. With the coin being porous, I had trouble with each test, having to thoroughly dry out the coin before beginning the next attempt. The "dry" weight would increase after each test by about .2 to .4 grains, which is not much but enough to not go forth with another SG test till I dried it under a lamp and it went back to the original dry weight. Each suspended in Water test was done quickly, before the coin had time to absorb extra water weight due to the poristy. But I know I also did some where it was immersed in the water for some time and the results were still much lower than any of the legit silver half dime results.
IF I am correct and it is not silver, as I propose, but I will stand corrected if proven otherwise, that again makes my original question valid. How did a counterfeit Half Dime become the size range of a Dime, thickness, maintain the reeded edge, not be distorted spacing wise, but yet had to been originally made using a legit Half Dime...........
As far as corrosion doing it, forget that! Having found hundreds of silver coins in my area over 30 years, never, ever seen a legit silver coin come out of ground, sand, swamp, water looking like that. Most of the time Silver looks like the day it was dropped in certain ground or coated with a light coat of dirt. Water/Air will blacken the silver coins, but those buried completely since lost usually look great.
Sorry for long reply, but this one has been interesting one to try and solve. Perhaps someone experienced with doing lots of SG test could offfer a suggestion on another procedure for getting results. Right now I can only do it with distilled water and my digital scale, which I trust within reasonable error percentages. But the porisity of the weird Half Dime might require me to do it a different way.
Here is a comparison photo of a definite fire damage Half Real with my suspect Half Dime.
started as a half dime, and pounded down, and fire damaged (not sure of order)
then a cast mold made of that and some cheap pot metal used - are ther any funny areas on the edge?
the scratches on the obverse look like someone suspicious wondered what the metal was
how many hours did a worker need to work for a half dime wages?
if there were any $20 - $50 coins around today, they would be counterfeited - look at the dollar bills keeping SS busy
<< <i>I think it is a contemporary counterfeit
started as a half dime, and pounded down, and fire damaged (not sure of order)
then a cast mold made of that and some cheap pot metal used - are ther any funny areas on the edge?
the scratches on the obverse look like someone suspicious wondered what the metal was
how many hours did a worker need to work for a half dime wages?
if there were any $20 - $50 coins around today, they would be counterfeited - look at the dollar bills keeping SS busy >>
No doubt left in my mind it is not silver, besides the two tests mentioned, SG and the Ferrous/Conductive and Tone reading on the metal detector, the simple drop "ring" test is also all telling, it drops with a Thud, a silver have dime dropped does have a ring to it on the same table.
I agree the scratches were put there on purpose and probably to say, hey, this is a piece of junk, but who knows.
Not sure what a saw mill worker (site where found) earned in the mid 1800s but I am sure nowhere near the national average of 16 dollars a week you will get when googling such information. I do remember mill and forge workers in the late teens of1800s earning approximately 12.5 cents per day, or was it per week! Either way, even a half dime would have been appreciated in those days. But then again, it may have been trying to be passed off as a DIME, ah, double your pleasure...
Still not sure if any of the damage is from heat or fire, since a inferior metal can do blistering as it deteriorates or even when first cast.
I looked at the edges all the way around and could not determine any unusual characteristics, it had a reeded edge and most of it is viewable around the perimeter. But some areas worn down, so not totally viewable.
<< <i> As far as corrosion doing it, forget that! Having found hundreds of silver coins in my area over 30 years, never, ever seen a legit silver coin come out of ground, sand, swamp, water looking like that. Most of the time Silver looks like the day it was dropped in certain ground or coated with a light coat of dirt. Water/Air will blacken the silver coins, but those buried completely since lost usually look great. >>
Just food for thought. You said "in my area" but it could have been buried in a different area and very different conditions.
It's a tough one to say the least.
<< <i>
<< <i> As far as corrosion doing it, forget that! Having found hundreds of silver coins in my area over 30 years, never, ever seen a legit silver coin come out of ground, sand, swamp, water looking like that. Most of the time Silver looks like the day it was dropped in certain ground or coated with a light coat of dirt. Water/Air will blacken the silver coins, but those buried completely since lost usually look great. >>
Just food for thought. You said "in my area" but it could have been buried in a different area and very different conditions.
It's a tough one to say the least.
"My area" is coastal plain, which is mostly a sandy, well drained soil, except in the acidic low, swampy areas and even coppers found are in much better shape than most of the rest of the country. I have seen silvers found all over the USA and none have looked like this.
Yes, this is a tough one, that is why I am posting, since with the knowledge I have gained over the years cannot figure this one out with any certainty. This is thefirst coin I have found that just is beyond the normal counterfeit, which again, I am sure it is not a legit Half Dime altered. I don't care about condition, just how the darn thing came to be............
I do not consider ground condtions to be a factor other than the deterioraton factor of the coin,(since it appears to be a base metal of some type) but not for how it got bigger and thicker in direct proportion.... Even the early pewter counterfeit coins I have found in the ground did not increase in size, just started rotting away, perimeter areas first. Also, silver coins found in the salt water environment also do not act like this however I do believe years ago I found a mercury dime that looked like it engaged a head shrinker, it actually shrank from whatever was in the muck of the Delaware Bay........