Fake 1986 Fleer Basketball Pack -- Opportunity to Raise Awareness in the Hobby?? Pictures and YouTu

dzolot · February 1, 2011 11:41AM

Hey all -- I bought the ungraded 1986 fleer basketball pack in the eBay auction below:

eBay Link

No surprise that I am pretty sure it is fake. I'm not good at putting scans online, so i'll try to explain why I think the pack is fake. On the back of the card, where normally both sides are folded and sealed, only ONE side is folded! The seller quickly agreed to take the pack back and refund my money and also filed to cancel the auction - IMO, he was making sure to do everything possible to avoid getting a negative FB so he can continue to sell bogus packs!

Now for my questions:
1. based on the info available, what's your opinion on the authenticity of the pack?
2. I have a graded 86 fleer pack i can use to compare (have to get it out from the security box at the bank) but assuming the pack IS fake, I was thinking about using my following on youtube (see link below, my videos have over 50,000 views) to expose this punk!! If you have watched my videos or read my posts on the boards, you can clearly see my love and passion for our hobby. I would gladly take the $150 loss on the pack if I can expose this guy and other fakes in our hobby. Any suggestions for what I can do in a video to make the most of the situation? For example, I was thinking about comparing the real pack vs. the fake pack so people know what to look for, encourage people to ONLY buy graded material, and call out the sellers eBay username and address, etc. Or maybe this is entirely a bad idea and I should just return the card and get my money back???

Thoughts / comments please.

Thanks!!

CrazyMind2017 · February 1, 2011 11:49AM

I don't know if the pack is real or fake, but if a buyer demanded to return an item to me, I'd immediately file to cancel the ebay transaction to get a FVF credit. You can still leave feedback regardless.

dzolot · February 1, 2011 11:55AM

crazymind - Thanks for the info. - i didn't know that... Ya, i think it will be hard for anyone to tell if it's fake based on the limited facts available. The seller has sold a bunch of these packs, so there is some feedback to review, but it's hard to tell...

I am still curious to get people's feedback, but I will compare with the graded pack I have and if i suspect it's fake, may open either on my own or on video. I guess if after review i think it's real, i'll send into PSA to get graded. Except for the fact that one side is not folded, the pack appears to be in mint condition...

Thanks again for your help!!

Muggyman · February 1, 2011 11:58AM

Hi DZ, Muggyan here, 'sorry to hear that!

1986 Fleer Basketball is the #1 pack to NEVER buy raw on ebay, it's that simple! I learned by buying 3 or 4 packs and that was 5+ years ago.

1979/80 Gretzky RC is probably the #2 resealed wax pack that I would not buy raw.

NEVER! Just don't do it!

I would trust BBCExchange, but as a rule... buy these packs that are PSA (GAI with caution) graded only!

Definitely do a video and open up the pack for us - maybe you'll get some really nice commons.

Good luck, one love!

ThoseBackPages · February 1, 2011 12:02PM

BBCE is the ONLY place to buy vintage wax

grote15 · February 1, 2011 12:13PM

There's a reason auctions like these close well below market value...the guy from MI is another notorious resealer..

minors4me · February 1, 2011 12:49PM

there's a reason why bidders ID's are hidden on these auctions. look threw the sellers feedback and you will see a pattern with private feedback, most of these listings are for 86/87 packs.

Sean1125 · February 1, 2011 1:26PM

I had bought a few of this guys "vintage" lots... People posted about the 86 packs being resealed on those too

stangrider · February 1, 2011 3:43PM

I bought a pack from this guy and I found out the hard it was resealed, after I already opened it! The ordering of the cards was completely off and the wear on the cards was a dead giveaway! Please do everyone a favor and leave him neg. feedback so he can't rip off any more people!

mikeschmidt · February 1, 2011 4:15PM

<< For example, I was thinking about comparing the real pack vs. the fake pack so people know what to look for, encourage people to ONLY buy graded material, and call out the sellers eBay username and address, etc. Or >>

Just get your money back. Grading helps -- but I think there have been a number of threads that suggest that it is only a starting point, as there have been questionable material that has consistently made its way into holders. It is hard to educate people on these sorts of matters if they don't want to be educated. It is precisely that lack of awareness that leads many to perpetrate such scams on Ebay in the first place.

mtcards · February 2, 2011 12:39AM

I can give you a less scientific way to tell the pack is fake/resealed...ITS ON EBAY

I think Steve at BBCE stated that almost 90% of wax on ebay is resealed. (I may be off on my numbers a little, but it was an extreme majority number). I had one experience buying raw wax on ebay, 1984 Fleer and a 1985 Topps, not ONE star in either box. That was about 6 years ago, I learned my lesson, paid my stupid tax and moved on. Bottom line is, NEVER BUY WAX ON EBAY, unless you feel the need to overpay for commons and low grade cards. On the 10% chance its real, its not worth what you paid.

dzolot · February 2, 2011 2:48AM

Thanks everyone for your comments. Ya, i get it, pack is almost certainly not real. Do you think a video of the exerience (and opening the pack) would be a good / education / industry helping thing to do?? Any other points to make sure to address in the video??

Again, thank you all for your comments / thoughts / inputs / etc...

Stone193 · February 2, 2011 3:07AM

My recommendation - if you're not comfortable with the pack - return it.

If he returns your money - thus totally complying with his guarantee - how can you justify a negative?

The guy has a good FB and sells many things - perhaps he does a lot of consignments? Who knows?

I wouldn't mind seeing a large scan linked.

edit: I'm not excited over the fact that he runs a totally private auction.

Littletweed · February 2, 2011 10:35AM

<< There's a reason auctions like these close well below market value...the guy from MI is another notorious resealer.. >>

I took a chance on some 1980-81 Topps Basketball packs from this seller, all were resealed. I got them cheap and learned my lesson. Based on my experience, I'd say stay away packs from this seller.

cubfan89 · February 2, 2011 10:47AM

Do a video and expose him if he constantly is selling junk wax.

dzolot · February 2, 2011 11:50AM

I know this guy is following eBay's policy, but that doesn't mean he's not doing something wrong in the bigger picture. IMO, at a minimum, this guy knows the packs are resealed and at worst, he is involved in the resealing process!! He obviously knows they're fake or he would have sent the packs in to get graded!! Isn't returning the pack and getting a refund a cop-out??

sportscardtheory · February 2, 2011 12:42PM

<< I know this guy is following eBay's policy, but that doesn't mean he's not doing something wrong in the bigger picture. IMO, at a minimum, this guy knows the packs are resealed and at worst, he is involved in the resealing process!! He obviously knows they're fake or he would have sent the packs in to get graded!! Isn't returning the pack and getting a refund a cop-out?? >>

It would be hard to prove that he re-sealed the pack, especially since you can't really prove it. You don't have to have the transaction canceled though. Not sure why you would do that. Just hit him with an Item Not As Described, then you can leave feedback and get your money back.

brendanb438 · February 2, 2011 1:15PM

<< My recommendation - if you're not comfortable with the pack - return it.

If he returns your money - thus totally complying with his guarantee - how can you justify a negative?

The guy has a good FB and sells many things - perhaps he does a lot of consignments? Who knows?

I wouldn't mind seeing a large scan linked.

edit: I'm not excited over the fact that he runs a totally private auction. >>

Well if the guy is selling resealed packs as legit packs how can you justify not leaving a negative to warn others? Refund or not if he is scamming people need to inform others to stop him or her from doing this.

dzolot · February 5, 2011 1:21AM

dzolot · February 5, 2011 1:28AM

Didn't mean to bump this without a message. Was trying to upload scans, but he file size is too big!! Will have to try again later.

Anyway, I got my graded card (which i believe IS real) and the card in question that i bought off eBay is (as expected) 100% FAKE!!!

I am definitely going to give this guy a negative feedback because he is selling fake packs! I'll try to get the scans up later...

dzolot · February 5, 2011 1:41AM

Here are the pictures...

dzolot · February 5, 2011 11:22PM

Video created!!

YouTube Video

Lemme know what you think...

Muggyman · February 5, 2011 11:44PM

Expose 'em all, DZ! Give that seller a BIG FAT NEGATIVE!

Great video!

steelersyankees · February 6, 2011 1:40AM

Great information.I like your youtube videos,keep them coming.

Stone193 · February 6, 2011 2:15AM

Wow Dave - ya took one for the team!

The fact that the sticker is a fake just floored me!

In this case - the seller is responsible for what they purvey - even if they bought it from someone and didn't do the handiwork themselves.

That was a very good video - well done - thanx!!!!

leftofdial · February 6, 2011 2:47AM

Thanks for posting that video- I thought it was resealed but had no idea that the wrapper and sticker were actually going to counterfeits!

Dboneesq · February 6, 2011 4:16AM

Awesome video Dave ... thanks for exposing this seller. LET'S GO KNICKS!

dzolot · February 6, 2011 5:20AM

Thanks all!! After the initial response to this thread, I didn't know how the video was going to go over, so I really appreciated the positive feedback and support!! the jordan "sticker" was something else!! Total scam artist!! Well anyway, thanks again and spread the word!!

DZ

bking · February 6, 2011 5:21AM

<< Thanks all!! After the initial response to this thread, I didn't know how the video was going to go over, so I really appreciated the positive feedback and support!! the jordan "sticker" was something else!! Total scam artist!! Well anyway, thanks again and spread the word!!

DZ >>

Gee, did that guy with the IT son-in-law and attorney dad contact you yet???

summerof68 · February 6, 2011 5:37AM

<< I can give you a less scientific way to tell the pack is fake/resealed...ITS ON EBAY

I think Steve at BBCE stated that almost 90% of wax on ebay is resealed. (I may be off on my numbers a little, but it was an extreme majority number). I had one experience buying raw wax on ebay, 1984 Fleer and a 1985 Topps, not ONE star in either box. That was about 6 years ago, I learned my lesson, paid my stupid tax and moved on. Bottom line is, NEVER BUY WAX ON EBAY, unless you feel the need to overpay for commons and low grade cards. On the 10% chance its real, its not worth what you paid. >>

mtcards, it was several months ago that Steve stated in one of his blogs that approximately 75% all ALL unopened (raw) vintage material on ebay was bad!

1986 Fleer basketball wax packs are by far the favorite pack of choice of vintage resealers--Muggyman is correct: NEVER buy raw '86 fleer basketball wax packs on ebay! Donate your money to a good charity instead.

handyman · February 7, 2011 6:25PM

Put the whole box up for a 1 day auction
1986 packs

Muggyman · February 7, 2011 7:23PM

Mug sent via ebay...

Dear tg,

Please do not think that selling these fake packs AS-IS covers you from federal mail fraud. You are already being investigated by ebay and several local and federal authorities. I would be very careful who you end up selling these to. As a matter of fact, I would not follow through with any sale of these packs if I was you.

Take this friendly advice as you may, it is such a serious offense that this 1 day auction has been red flagged and targeted as a felony.

This auction and your previous sales are all being watched under a careful eye, you are being set up for a major take down.

There is no need to respond to me, I am just one individual of many involved that has submitted evidence and is trying to give you a heads up...

- muggyman

Dboneesq · February 7, 2011 8:02PM

Dave ... Let us know if you get any response from this guy!

dzolot · February 7, 2011 10:50PM

<< Mug sent via ebay...

Dear tg,

Please do not think that selling these fake packs AS-IS covers you from federal mail fraud. You are already being investigated by ebay and several local and federal authorities. I would be very careful who you end up selling these to. As a matter of fact, I would not follow through with any sale of these packs if I was you.

Take this friendly advice as you may, it is such a serious offense that this 1 day auction has been red flagged and targeted as a felony.

This auction and your previous sales are all being watched under a careful eye, you are being set up for a major take down.

There is no need to respond to me, I am just one individual of many involved that has submitted evidence and is trying to give you a heads up...

- muggyman >>

Awesome Muggy -- That's why they call you the Muggy MAN!!! Looks like he DID take down the auction after all -- that's the 1st halfway intelligent think he's done yet!! Burning those packs wouldn't be a bad idea either... Commenting to my youtube video and further incriminating himself... umm... Not so smart. replying to the negative FB I left him with a complete (and very provable) lie, umm... Not so smart...

CrazyMind2017 · February 8, 2011 12:15AM

He didn't take the listing down, ebay did. If he'd done it, the listing would still be there, just ended.

Why tip him off at all?

jeffcbay · February 8, 2011 2:37AM

DZ, you gotta post that Youtube link in a feedback follow-up. Just got to. Nice video!

dzolot · February 8, 2011 2:44AM

Thanks jeffcbay -- I already left a negative feedback, but anyway, I'm not sure if ebay will allow a URL in a feedback comment. I can check it out anyway...

Barfvader · February 8, 2011 2:58AM

Feedback Policy

Members can't include links, profanity, or other inappropriate content in Feedback comments.

Inappropriate Feedback Comments Policy

Allowed:

While insulting language, like "fraud," "liar," "cheater," "scam artist," or "con man," is strongly discouraged, Feedback containing such language won't be removed unless it also contains some type of content that isn't allowed.

Not allowed:

Links or scripts

References to eBay or PayPal investigations

Negative statements left for a buyer that conflict with the positive rating

Personally identifying information about another member, including real name, address, phone number, or email address

Political, religious, or social commentary rather than a genuine comment about the transaction

Comments, replies, or follow-ups that reference a separate transaction

Profane, vulgar, obscene, or racist language, or adult material

jeffcbay · February 8, 2011 3:12AM

Maybe you can write:

"Search for '1986 Fake Pack Exposed' on Youtube for a video of proof!"

That's not a link.