Circulated Feuchtwanger one-cent sells for $6900.00!

TPRC · January 28, 2011 2:35AM

At the recent Stacks Sale, a scarce 3-D variety circulated feuchtwanger one-cent sold for $6900.00. The feuchtwanger was generously listed as an xf-40 and was part of the Q. D. Bowers collection. As a long time collector of feuchtwanger cents, this is significant to me because I have never seen a circulated feuchtwanger one-cent sell for anywhere near that money. Joe Levine at Presidential Coin used to handle many of scarcer feuchtwangers at his token auctions, but I've never seen anything like this.

So I am wondering, is this legit? I have no reason to think it is not legit other than the price. Was anyone there for the auction? Was it two bidders? It was Q.D.B.'s so maybe that was a factor. Does anyone know anything about this lot?

I also happen to own a nicer 3-d as well as the scarcer 4-f variety, which I will post later. So, am I rich? Ambro, Deagle, others, what do you think?

Here is the link to the Stack's sale item at lot 6541:
Stacks sale item

llafoe · January 28, 2011 2:41AM

Ambro?

Tdec1000 · January 28, 2011 2:44AM

He is probably milking the cats.

errr...giving milk to the cats.

Tdec1000 · January 28, 2011 3:22AM

Ambro will surely be around shortly....the guy loves Feutchwangers and Gold Dollars!!

Lakesammman · January 28, 2011 3:35AM

...... or else he's weeping and depressed........

TPRC · January 28, 2011 3:36AM

I'm waiting patiently for him and for Deagle. I think Deagle posted a very nice 3-D variety on another Ambro initiated post. In thinking through this a bit more, the price might not be out of line. I have never seen a properly attributed 3-D or a 4-f come up for auction. About 10 or more years ago I missed out on a high grade au 4-f variety on ebay because of a slow internet connection. The coin went cheap..for about $600-700. I told a well known token dealer about it (nice guy..cant' remember his name but he used to use a token-business card) and he opined that it was a $2500 coin. I inferred that he meant $2500 as a dealer buy price to "to him." So maybe that price is realistic. I hope so.

llafoe · January 28, 2011 3:38AM

<< <i>...... or else he's weeping and depressed........ >>

...or he's trying to collect on all the wood furniture he had to make to pay his Stacks invoice!

shorecoll · January 28, 2011 3:40AM

I had planned to bid on it, until bidding opened and I fainted.

Broadstruck · January 28, 2011 3:46AM

<< <i>Ambro will surely be around shortly >>

I was shocked to see this 3-D at the $3250.00 level as I personally wouldn't have paid 4 figures for it.

The other Feuchtwangers in the sale that surprised me are the 1837 3C HT-262 / Low-117 which fetched $5750.00 now in a PCGS MS63 holder.

I had a chance to view it in hand the Philly sale in Oct as a then raw AU58 and it had no bids and was purchasable as post auction for well under $3K and did not sell.

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 4:19AM

Well Guys I had wanted that piece since I first seen it up for auction. I had the 3250 bid and then upped my bid to $5753.

A floor bidder walked me up and over that, and at 6000....I was sitting with my finger on the mouse, well and truly centered on B I D...but just could NOT do it. The feeling I had was that whoever was there in NYC was not going to be denied...and he would walk me up and up until he won. 10K? maybe. I dunno.

I feel this guy is now fully buried in the coin. Maybe Im wrong. Maybe Im not. It is an R7, 4-12 known...and Ive not seen another auction sale and have only seen three different examples in all my web searching. JJ Ford didnt have one, the ANS dosent have one, Alan Fischer dosent (maybe he does NOW) have one.....and I dont have one.

Oh well. Im not gonna sweat it. BUT you can be assured that I will continue to prowl ebay because you KNOW sooner or later some rumpkin dealer of 'estate' seller is going to turn one up..and sell it for $125 dollars. All I need to do is spot the berries that are not rouind, and the dropped O in ONE. .,.,....and get it before someone realizes the same thing.

SO, yes, it was a legit auction, with a few crazy people who wanted it more than logic says it may be worth. BUT, esoteric items such as this, when they DO appear...to the right person, the price matters not.

HT260 the Feuchtwanger 377 Broadway storecard...that was a very important piece an just as rare, went for 6K too. The HT262, yes Bowers had that in the Phila sale and it went unsold but the money it went for now seems to be in line with other auction sales of the same piece in similar grade.

TPRC · January 28, 2011 4:33AM

<< <i>Well Guys I had wanted that piece since I first seen it up for auction. I had the 3250 bid and then upped my bid to $5753.

A floor bidder walked me up and over that, and at 6000....I was sitting with my finger on the mouse, well and truly centered on B I D...but just could NOT do it. The feeling I had was that whoever was there in NYC was not going to be denied...and he would walk me up and up until he won. 10K? maybe. I dunno.

I feel this guy is now fully buried in the coin. Maybe Im wrong. Maybe Im not. It is an R7, 4-12 known...and Ive not seen another auction sale and have only seen three different examples in all my web searching. JJ Ford didnt have one, the ANS dosent have one, Alan Fischer dosent (maybe he does NOW) have one.....and I dont have one.

Oh well. Im not gonna sweat it. BUT you can be assured that I will continue to prowl ebay because you KNOW sooner or later some rumpkin dealer of 'estate' seller is going to turn one up..and sell it for $125 dollars. All I need to do is spot the berries that are not rouind, and the dropped O in ONE. .,.,....and get it before someone realizes the same thing.

SO, yes, it was a legit auction, with a few crazy people who wanted it more than logic says it may be worth. BUT, esoteric items such as this, when they DO appear...to the right person, the price matters not.

HT260 the Feuchtwanger 377 Broadway storecard...that was a very important piece an just as rare, went for 6K too. The HT262, yes Bowers had that in the Phila sale and it went unsold but the money it went for now seems to be in line with other auction sales of the same piece in similar grade. >>

Wow! Thank you, Ambro, for the blow by blow account. I will happily trade you my nicer 3-d for your 3-center. 3-Cent Feuchtwanger

But that's probably not the best deal for you.
I just had no idea that these odd varieties were that highly valued.

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 4:35AM

haha, no, Im not up for a trade on that piece.

BUT, if you do want to sell the 4F and 3D Id be more than happy to talk dollars with you. More than happy......

TPRC · January 28, 2011 4:38AM

HMM....let me think about that. I any event, I'll post photos of my varieties either on this thread or another..I've been meaning to do that anyway.

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 4:44AM

I am totally serious. You think about it....also, there are gold dollars that are begging to be horsetraded...keep that in mind too.

The entire Feuchtwanger series...and Im now up to visualizing it at 26 pieces....is a tough cookie. The unique pieces are there, as well as a bunch of R7 and R8's.

llafoe · January 28, 2011 4:45AM

I'm surprised they had glasses to view 3D coins in the 1850s!

TPRC · January 28, 2011 4:47AM

<< <i>I am totally serious. You think about it....also, there are gold dollars that are begging to be horsetraded...keep that in mind too.

The entire Feuchtwanger series...and Im now up to visualizing it at 26 pieces....is a tough cookie. The unique pieces are there, as well as a bunch of R7 and R8's. >>

OK. You might also want to pm Deagle as he posted a 3-d that to my eye was AU+ and nicer than mine. One of us is bound to crack!

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 4:50AM

Have you ever seen a 3C, or know of a collection with one?

BTW I am doing a presentation on these in a week or so at the local coin club. Should be interesting.

TPRC · January 28, 2011 4:55AM

I have a bad photo of a 3-C and it is holed, I believe. If it scans, I can sned you a copy. Jim Kotsouros, who wrote the pamphlet on the Feuchtwanger cents (if you don't have a copy you should get one) told me that a single 3-c variety is known, it is in the hands of the Feuchtwanger family, and it is not likely to see the light of day anytime soon.

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 4:58AM

Thats some good info on the 3C. I dont have a copy of the pamphlet yet. does he still sell copies of it? AMAZON had one listed at over fifty bucks...I passed.

A few years ago I remember an ebay auction...the guy was PRETTY sure he had a hard circulated 3C but at the time I didnt pay it much attention.

TPRC · January 28, 2011 5:02AM

PM me with your email address and we can communicate privately, if you like. Unfortunately, I have lost touch with Jim Kotsouros and don't know his whereabouts. He is the single most knowledgeable person I have ever met on the one-cent varieties.

sinin1 · January 28, 2011 6:01AM

who attributed these varieties? (what book is it in?)

what are the diagnostics of the 3-D?

aparently it was a legit sale, and ambro wanted it -

and the other bidder was doing something (wanting it, hoarding it, bidding it up, ....) and got it

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 6:12AM

The differences between the varieties was long known, in early auction descriptions such terms as 'blunt rear wing' was used...but finally our ol friend Walter Breen set the designations down in 1956-57 using the extensive stock of New Netherlands. In examining (I seem to remember) 338 different pieces, he came up with a series of numbers for the obverse, and letters for the reverses. In all, today, there are 15 seperate varieties recorded.

Most of the pieces seen today are 6I. Obverse 5, the 5H and 5G are also fairly common. Obverse 3 is paired with many different reverses. Unknown today why Feuchtwanger done this, since several reverses are known only from a few specimens.

The rarest 5 varieties of the coin are known by a total of 52 pieces (using established rarity scales). The 3D is fourth rarest. Reverse D is noted as having berries that look more like enlongeated stems, and the O in ONE is set much lower than the N and E.

The rarest piece of the series no doubt is the unique 7J, which was unknown to Rulau. As far as I know, this is still owned by QDB who paid 5K for it many years ago. A full mm larger, it is struck from silver, rather than feuchtwangers alloy. The edge is plain, rather than reeded. Both obverse die and reverse die are similar but show features which are not in any other die.

This is a piece which will no doubt open many eyes and wallets if, and when, it comes to auction. Id predict at least 35K on this one.

shorecoll · January 28, 2011 6:19AM

Ambro...I am mostly a book collector...so easily offended by such comments as yours that you would pay $6K for the token but wouldn't pay $50 for the book...sheesh!!!

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 6:23AM

haha, I dont mind buying ANY book, but do not wish to pay amazon (or its agents) 50$ for a 12 page pamphlet. It will come to me, but in a different way.

shorecoll · January 28, 2011 6:27AM

If I trip over one cheap, I'll let you know.

pcgs69 · January 28, 2011 7:01AM

I'm sure it's expensive because that 3D coin is 150 years ahead of its time... heck we're just getting 3D TVs...

ambro51 · January 28, 2011 7:06AM

Even though obviously we have taken a side road here with the comical use of the term 3D...Id like to point out that 3D was ALL THE RAGE during the 2nd half of the 19th century.

Every see a stereo viewer? Ever LOOK through a stereo viewer? Fantastic 3D presentation of an image that took the world by storm. This is done by using a camera that takes two pictures, with the lenses set 3.5 inches apart. The negative is printed, the prints transposed and the image leaps out at you. The stereo viewer is the trick here too, the view lenses are actually a single large lens, cut in half, and the halves switched in the viewer. this fools the eyes and brain into converging the images into one. stereo effect works out to about 85 yards or so.
People still make stereo images, the realist stereo camera is still used by a lot of people today.

Samsung has many patents for 3D television, unfortunatly in the US you cannot purchase stock direct in Samsung. Once it hits well witih public favor...all TVs will be 3D.

and that coin will still be an R7 and Ill still be looking for one!

Circulated Feuchtwanger one-cent sells for $6900.00!

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