Stacks is going to get a call tomorrow...UPDATED WITH THEIR RESPONSE...WHAT SHOULD I RESPOND?

joebb21 · January 26, 2011 11:05AM

I bid on some coins that were listed as NO RESERVE (am I sure that they were no reserve? yes! because if it does not say no reserve- I dont bid)
I logged in tonight to see how the auction went and see that I was the high bidder on a lot but it is listed as LOT NOT SOLD.

You may say to me, well maybe you just missed one auction and really there was a reserve on it.

My response- There was more than one coin I bid on that didnt sell so that means more than one they put a reserve on since yesterday when the lot CLEARLY read NO RESERVE.

Im

Anybody else notice this?

**************
UPDATE
**************

Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia

RYK · January 26, 2011 11:11AM

I am not surprised, but I suspect that they are abiding by their terms. It is also possible that their website is wrong, that there was a higher bidder, and/or that you won the coin and will be alerted later.

WTCG · January 26, 2011 11:12AM

Lot could have been withdrawn for a variety of reasons.

joebb21 · January 26, 2011 11:15AM

<< Lot could have been withdrawn for a variety of reasons. >>

when nobody decides to bid higher?

and once again it was on 2 lots that were listed as no reserve (one of which I was supposed to have won)

DCW · January 26, 2011 11:20AM

Didn't the same scenario just happen to you over at heritage?

BaseballAbs · January 26, 2011 11:30AM

Had the same thing happen to me a while back. Let me know if you get it fixed.

shorecoll · January 26, 2011 11:39AM

It happened to me...then I checked back later and it said sold to a floor bidder. I plan to check when I call to pay for my other lots.

Bayard1908 · January 26, 2011 3:19PM

I've seen this happen as well.

PerryHall · January 26, 2011 10:57PM

Sounds fishy to me. Let us know what kind of excuse they give you.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · January 26, 2011 11:35PM

Frankly, something odd probably did happen. Maybe the consignor changed his agreement with them and you were completely misled.
Unfortunately it's not going to help to complain, but I wish you luck!

ColonialCoinUnion · January 26, 2011 11:44PM

<< Frankly, something fishy probably did happen. >>

How the heck do you know?

ambro51 · January 26, 2011 11:48PM

How much "under value' was your winnning? bid?

timcoin · January 27, 2011 12:10AM

No Reserve at that time. That could have changed. It probably did change because the PM prices have gone down so much. I think it is important to remember that an auction company only makes money if a lot sells. Maybe keep that into consideration when you call them to express your disappointment.

Edited to add: By the way, I have always thought highly of Bowers & Ruddy/Bowers & Merena/American Numismatic Rarities/Stack's featuring Bowers/Stack's-Bowers Numismatics.

coinguy1 · January 27, 2011 12:13AM

<< No Reserve at that time. That could have changed. It probably did change because the PM prices have gone down so much. I think it is important to remember that an auction company only makes money if a lot sells. Maybe keep that into consideration when you call them to express your disappointment. >>

Often, an auction company makes money if a coin fails to sell/meet reserve, too. There can be a fee, based on a fixed % of the reserve price which wasn't met, or a higher fee for the coins that do meet reserve.

And, while we don't know if this is what happened here, it is unfair to bidders if a consignor is allowed to place last minute reserves.

MrEureka · January 27, 2011 12:42AM

I had a small consignment in Stack's NYINC auction, most of which was unreserved. Of the unreserved lots, one was not sold because it did not attract a bid equal to half the low estimate, and their policy is not to sell coins below that level. I don't know if things are done the same way for US coin sales, but it's certainly possible. (Even if there's no published estimate, there might be an unpublished one.)

PerryHall · January 27, 2011 1:49AM

<< Of the unreserved lots, one was not sold because it did not attract a bid equal to half the low estimate, and their policy is not to sell coins below that level. >>

So, there was a reserve.

relicsncoins · January 27, 2011 2:38AM

Note to sellers.........Start the stupid auction at a price you are willing to accept and quit jerking bidders around with hidden reserves. Many reserves on ebay have nothing to do with the value of an item and more to do with trying to dupe an un-informed bidder into paying more than something is worth.

I hate reserve auctions and will rarly bid on them unless I absoulutely need the coin for my collection.

Rant complete.

derryb · January 27, 2011 2:41AM

<< I am not surprised, but I suspect that they are abiding by their terms. It is also possible that their website is wrong, that there was a higher bidder, and/or that you won the coin and will be alerted later. >>

Don't think I will bid any more via a website that might be wrong. Thanks for the heads up.

DaveE · January 27, 2011 2:52AM

I bid in that sale too. I bid on a coin that had no reserve.

When the sale ended I read: "did nto meet reserve".

Stacks, people you can trust-NOT!

joebb21 · January 27, 2011 4:00AM

update in original post.

It seems DaveE had the same problem as me

RYK · January 27, 2011 4:02AM

The inclusion of reserves is a courtesy, not an obligation, provided by the auction firms. Even when coins do not have a stated reserve, I expect there to be one.

Bayard1908 · January 27, 2011 4:03AM

<< 

<< Of the unreserved lots, one was not sold because it did not attract a bid equal to half the low estimate, and their policy is not to sell coins below that level. >>

So, there was a reserve. >>

That's a minimum, not a reserve.

The terms people think of as being a real auction are "no minimum and no reserve."

PerryHall · January 27, 2011 4:05AM

<< Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia >>

I think it's unethical to ambush bidders with "a last minute reserve".

derryb · January 27, 2011 4:06AM

I will not do business with an auction house that allows a reserve to be place after bidding has begun.

RYK · January 27, 2011 4:06AM

<< 

<< Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia >>

I think it's unethical to ambush bidders with "a last minute reserve". >>

How is it an ambush? No one was harmed, and no money was lost. Just consider it a higher bid.

RYK · January 27, 2011 4:07AM

<< I will not do business with an auction house that allows a reserve to be place after bidding has begun. >>

Well, then, stop bidding on Heritage auctions. They allow it.

derryb · January 27, 2011 4:10AM

<< 

<< I will not do business with an auction house that allows a reserve to be place after bidding has begun. >>

Well, then, stop bidding on Heritage auctions. They allow it. >>

Never started for the same reason.

dragon · January 27, 2011 4:14AM

When I bid in Heritage sales there is typically a clear and no nonsense part of the lot description that states "Reserve, if any, will post on XXX date" They also use an asterisk next to the current high bid on some lots with a reserve price to indicate that the next bid will meet the reserve price.

IMO adding a higher reserve price or withdrawing lots after the sale has begun and bidding has commenced is baloney, and I would not bid under those type of terms.

HalfStrike · January 27, 2011 4:15AM

I would think all of this is spelled out in their bidders terms of agreement, if it says they allow this then there is nothing to be done. If you can find no reference to this or it suggests otherwise then they owe you the coin perhaps.

MikeInFL · January 27, 2011 4:28AM

<< I if it DOES NOT say NO RESERVE- I DONT BID >>

Joebb21, Why? Just curious....Mike

abitofthisabitofthat · January 27, 2011 4:36AM

I don't understand your updated title. How should you respond? No response is required. You may not care for their business practice, but they are within their rights. If you don't like the way they run their auctions, don't bid with them again. Of course, you may miss out on some nice coins that way.

Wembley · January 27, 2011 4:41AM

<< 

<< 

<< Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia >>

I think it's unethical to ambush bidders with "a last minute reserve". >>

How is it an ambush? No one was harmed, and no money was lost. Just consider it a higher bid. >>

Let's say my budget is $10,000. I'd like to buy one of 2 coins in an auction and realistly I can only afford one. I bid $8,000 on coin A and pass on coin B because If I win both I wont be able to afford them both. Last minute reserve is placed on my bidded coin for $9000 and I dont find out until after the the auction. Coin B sells for $XXXX. I would have bid on coin B had I known coin A had a reserve and would have won coin B.

Was any harm done in this scenario?

DaveE · January 27, 2011 4:43AM

Ethically, Stacks is wrong. Just about every sale they try something. There is always an excuse from them.

I try to do as little buisness with them as possible.

coinguy1 · January 27, 2011 4:46AM

<< Another thing I hate is no option to pay the reserve price available to the high bidder in cases where the reserve was not met due to lack of bidding. If I bid 8k on ebay and reserve is 8500 and I'm willing to pay the 8500 but no bidding comes in to push my bid there, bam no one gets the coin. >>

Sometimes, under those circumstance, bidders are contacted after the sale and offered the items .

RYK · January 27, 2011 4:47AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia >>

I think it's unethical to ambush bidders with "a last minute reserve". >>

How is it an ambush? No one was harmed, and no money was lost. Just consider it a higher bid. >>

Let's say my budget is $10,000. I'd like to buy one of 2 coins in an auction and realistly I can only afford one. I bid $8,000 on coin A and pass on coin B because If I win both I wont be able to afford them both. Last minute reserve is placed on my bidded coin for $9000 and I dont find out until after the the auction. Coin B sells for $XXXX. I would have bid on coin B had I known coin A had a reserve and would have won coin B.

Was any harm done in this scenario? >>

The same harm as would have been if you were outbid, the lot withdrawn, etc. I doubt that there are "damages" for missed opportunities at auction. Frankly, most of the time I get outbid I am better off. You can bemoan and be disappointed with the lack of transparency, but you have to remember that the auction company works for the seller, primarily, and there is no inalienable right that one can rip a coin at auction.

If the auction company's practices are unsatisfactory to buyers, they will lose buyers and lose business and/or be forced to modify their policies.

Branchmint · January 27, 2011 4:56AM

The Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) addresses sales by auction in UCC Article 2-328.

In paragraph 3, it states that all auction sales are "WITH RESERVE unless the goods are in explicit terms put up without reserve. In an auction with reserve, the auctioneer may withdraw the goods at any time until he announces completion of the sale. In an auction without reserve, after the auctioneer calls for bids on an article or lot, that article or lot cannot be withdrawn unless no bid is made within a reasonable time. In either case a bidder may retract his bid until the auctioneer's announcement of completion of the sale, but a bidder's retraction does not revive any previous bid."

The bottom line ... if the auction does not specifically state "without reserve", "no reserve", "absolute" or words to that effect, the lot has a reserve, whether it is stated or not.

If an auction states that the lot has "no reserve", the auctioneer has no legal right to refuse to sell to the high bidder once a bid had been accepted.

Hope this helps clarify.

Wembley · January 27, 2011 4:56AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia >>

I think it's unethical to ambush bidders with "a last minute reserve". >>

How is it an ambush? No one was harmed, and no money was lost. Just consider it a higher bid. >>

Let's say my budget is $10,000. I'd like to buy one of 2 coins in an auction and realistly I can only afford one. I bid $8,000 on coin A and pass on coin B because If I win both I wont be able to afford them both. Last minute reserve is placed on my bidded coin for $9000 and I dont find out until after the the auction. Coin B sells for $XXXX. I would have bid on coin B had I known coin A had a reserve and would have won coin B.

Was any harm done in this scenario? >>

The same harm as would have been if you were outbid, the lot withdrawn, etc. I doubt that there are "damages" for missed opportunities at auction. Frankly, most of the time I get outbid I am better off. You can bemoan and be disappointed with the lack of transparency, but you have to remember that the auction company works for the seller, primarily, and there is no inalienable right that one can rip a coin at auction.

If the auction company's practices are unsatisfactory to buyers, they will lose buyers and lose business and/or be forced to modify their policies. >>

It's different than being outbid. Being outbid is part of the auction process. You know that if your bid is the highest one you will win the coin. You take this assumed risk at bid time knowing the possibility of being outbid exists and you bid accordingly. With a last second reserve you are essentially bidding on a coin with a hidden starting price that you are not made aware of which may have caused you to pass had you known. It's like going to a car dealership to buy a car, liking 2 cars, being told one is priced at XXXX, the other car sells while your drawing up the deal then being told the price just went up.

derryb · January 27, 2011 5:01AM

<< you have to remember that the auction company works for the seller, primarily >>

With a 15% buyer's premium I would hope they are looking after my interest as well. Having never sold through Stack's, what kind of percentage is the seller paying them?

PerryHall · January 27, 2011 5:02AM

<< 

<< 

<< Here is the response I got through email after I called this morning and was told they would "look into it".

"A last minute reserve was placed on this lot. Let me know if you have any questions."

Best regards,

Cynthia >>

I think it's unethical to ambush bidders with "a last minute reserve". >>

How is it an ambush? No one was harmed, and no money was lost. Just consider it a higher bid. >>

The winning bidder did not get the coin he won so he was harmed.

Branchmint · January 27, 2011 5:08AM

I sold some coins through Stacks before at a seller premium of 5% since I had a lot of stuff. I believe those rates are negotiable.

coinguy1 · January 27, 2011 5:11AM

<< 

<< you have to remember that the auction company works for the seller, primarily >>

With a 15% buyer's premium I would hope they are looking after my interest as well. Having never sold through Stack's, what kind of percentage is the seller paying them? >>

The 15% buyer's premium is part of the commission the auction house makes, and comes out of the seller's pocket, in the way of reduced hammer bids, upon which he is paid.

The seller might have paid up to 10% seller's commission, or as little as getting back a significant part of the 15% buyer's commission. In other words, for all we know, he is getting anywhere between approximately 90% and 107% of hammer.

joebb21 · January 27, 2011 5:17AM

<< 

<< I if it DOES NOT say NO RESERVE- I DONT BID >>

Joebb21, Why? Just curious....Mike >>

Its the reason I dont bid with teletrade. Im not going to spend my time so that I might or might not win because of high reserves.

As a forum member put it-"It's liking walking into a grocery store and having to guess what everthing costs."

As another way to look at it, call it artificially pumping up that coins "value".

coinut1799 · January 27, 2011 5:27AM

I believe Bayard 1908 hit it on the head. When I go to the Stack's auction site the coins I like all have opening (or minimum) bids, even if there is no reserve. For example, lot 5836 interested me, but when I looked at it on the computer it had a minimum bid of $6,000. I don't recall if the coin had a reserve, but I passed because the minimum was too high for me.
However, I do not know if the computer will accept a bid that is lower than the opening bid.

LindeDad · January 27, 2011 5:28AM

The Potted Palm always wins in the end.

RYK · January 27, 2011 5:33AM

If an auction states that the lot has "no reserve", the auctioneer has no legal right to refuse to sell to the high bidder once a bid had been accepted.

That's interesting. In that case, the OP should demand the coin and quote the code as his reasoning for doing so.

It's like going to a car dealership to buy a car, liking 2 cars, being told one is priced at XXXX, the other car sells while your drawing up the deal then being told the price just went up.

Auctions are a different animal than retail sells, and I suspect that the car dealer can do that if they want, as well. You will likely walk out of the place without a car and not return, and that's why they won't.

I have no great love for Stack's auctions, and my experience has been chronicled in the past. If you do not like the way they do things, do not look through their auction coins. I rarely do, and my collection does not seem to have suffered as a result.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 27, 2011 5:37AM

<< As a forum member put it-"It's liking walking into a grocery store and having to guess what everthing costs." >>

That's a very strange analogy, since of course in an auction you don't know what anything will cost until it actually sells.

derryb · January 27, 2011 5:46AM

Hidden reserves have always puzzled me since a better option of starting the bidding at the minimum acceptable price is a much more transparent alternative. Is it safe to assume that selling orders for all Stacks reserve auctions are placed with a requested reserve price and the decision to invoke and post the reserve is made by Stacks at a time determined by Stacks? If so I find this to be a questionable marketing strategy that borders on missleading.

I find it hard to believe that once an auction has started that the seller can contact Stacks and say "I want to add a reserve price."

coinguy1 · January 27, 2011 5:48AM

<< 

<< 

<< I if it DOES NOT say NO RESERVE- I DONT BID >>

Joebb21, Why? Just curious....Mike >>

Its the reason I dont bid with teletrade. Im not going to spend my time so that I might or might not win because of high reserves.

As a forum member put it-"It's liking walking into a grocery store and having to guess what everthing costs."

As another way to look at it, call it artificially pumping up that coins "value". >>

But you could experience the same waste of time and have the coins pumped up by other bidders, too, not just the owners of the coins. Some reserves are extremely reasonable, while others are absurd. Some competing bids from other bidders are very weak, and some will blow you away.

That said, I still agree that reserves should not be allowed to placed after bidding has commenced. It can cause bidders some of the problems already mentioned and it lends itself to manipulation.

derryb · January 27, 2011 5:51AM

<< That said, I still agree that reserves should not be allowed to placed after bidding has commenced. It can cause bidders some of the problems already mentioned and it lends itself to manipulation. >>

And I'm saying that I believe the reserve was placed with the sell order and that Stacks is controlling when it is invoked and posted. To me, that's questionable behavior. To not to initially invoke the reserve is probably just a marketing ploy to attract more bidders.

Either sell an item at a listed price or auction it to the highest bidder. A reserve is nothing more than a hidden bid by the seller to protect himself. To me it borders on shill bidding by the fact that it is a seller's bid. While completely legal it is still wrong. Sellers should not be able to put a reserve price in an auction. Reserves enable sellers to go fishing. They should be required to set an opening bid that they are willing to live with. At a minimum the existence of a seller's reserve should be noted before an auction begins.

RichieURich · January 27, 2011 6:05AM

<< . . . . .That said, I still agree that reserves should not be allowed to placed after bidding has commenced. It can cause bidders some of the problems already mentioned and it lends itself to manipulation. >>

Just to play devil's advocate, let's say you are the auction house, and a consignor wants to put a reserve on a coin at the last minute, and if you don't allow this, he/she will remove the lot from the auction. Which one is the better choice?

tmot99 · January 27, 2011 6:18AM

Well, I can tell you that unless things change significantly at Stacks, I won't be consigning my Columbian Expo collection to them. I do not believe that they have the staff that I want to work with. I just gave them a second chance with another small grouping and this confirmed my suspicions. And it's not about the hammer price, though some of my complaints may have generated higher prices.

The "minimum opening bid" is a figure they think is half of the expected hammer price. They put this in place whether the consigner knows it or not. (lesson learned). Their values, on stuff they apparently know very little on market values, were ridiculous. Some of the minimum opening bids they put on my stuff the first go around were higher than what the pieces sold for. Yet they sold right in the range that I had expected. I did get the minimum opening reserves lowered prior to the auction, but who knows how many people never put in a bid once they saw the opening $$. This time around, I stated specifically what the minimum opening bids should be.

I will save all my ranting about Stacks as to not throw off the thread. Anyone is free to PM me for all my complaints. Anyone know a good auction house for exonumia?

Stacks is going to get a call tomorrow...UPDATED WITH THEIR RESPONSE...WHAT SHOULD I RESPOND?

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