Jay Cutler ????
and5zac
Posts: 492
in Sports Talk
If you can stand on the sidelines then your not hurt! He gave up on his teammates and he makes me sick! Lou
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<< <i>For me, it comes down to what his injury ultimately is. If he has a torn ligament or something in his knee, then he's perfectly justifed sitting out. But if it is just a strain, I think he deserves to be questioned. There's no way they were winning that game with or without him, so its a moot point, but I think he loses credibility moving forward if it turns out to not be a serious injury. >>
It's hard to say since he was so off-target all day, but if he honestly decided the injury was affecting his ability to throw I might be inlcinined to cut him some slack for taking himself out. However, once Collins left, he should have put that concern aside.
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and how would affect his performance.
That said, usually most guys need to be almost dragged off the field in so important a game, if they are able to walk.
On the bench one might figure Cutler would have ice packs, massage, injections, a shot of whiskey, whatever possible,
to maybe remedy his pain enough for a later appearance in the most important game of his entire career ?
<< <i>If his teammates aren't questioning his "toughness", and quite the contrary, enthusiastically coming to his defense, should people really be getting on his case before we get all the facts. I'm not saying he is beyond rebuke but this is as extreme an example as I have seen of guilty before proven innocent that I can remember. >>
Agreed, and I freely admit that a LOT of my pre-judging comes from his demeanor - both in this game and in other settings. he just doesn't come across as a committed player to me, and this plays right into that stereotype.
Now, the word is out that he in fact DOES have a torn MCL, which is very hard to play on when it first happens. But again, my judgement, and probably that of most others, was based on how he handled himself.
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Why?
Because they are FANS.
They may be completely off base, but when has that ever stopped any fan from having an opinion that serves his or her emotional needs, wants, desires and whims at the particular moment that he or she expresses his or her opinion?
If your team loses a big game and the key player [QB in football] does not show the things that you want him to show, then he becomes an easy scapegoat, even if he does not deserve it. Same thing happens when your team wins. You give praise, many times undeserved, to the QB.
<< <i>They are saying that it is a strain MCL. >>
IF that's the official word, instead ofthe tear that I heard, then he should have nutted up and gone back out there after Collins left.
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Mickey71
As far as the injury is concerned, Im on the side that if he could have played he would have.
<< <i>Didn't Phil Rivers play with a torn/partially torn ACL during the AFCC game a few years back? That was the game Tomlinson sat out. >>
Yes, but I'm pretty sure he didn't play any mre in the game where he tore it. He did play the next week, which is a damn amazing feat, but he did have a week for it to "Calm" down.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Didn't Phil Rivers play with a torn/partially torn ACL during the AFCC game a few years back? That was the game Tomlinson sat out. >>
Yes, but I'm pretty sure he didn't play any mre in the game where he tore it. He did play the next week, which is a damn amazing feat, but he did have a week for it to "Calm" down. >>
torn ACL's "calm" down...thats a new one.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Didn't Phil Rivers play with a torn/partially torn ACL during the AFCC game a few years back? That was the game Tomlinson sat out. >>
Yes, but I'm pretty sure he didn't play any mre in the game where he tore it. He did play the next week, which is a damn amazing feat, but he did have a week for it to "Calm" down. >>
torn ACL's "calm" down...thats a new one. >>
Not really; been there done that myself... When it first happens, the pain, weakness and swelling is off the charts, making it totally unusable (especially for me) . Once that subsides, it's a matter of pain tolerance and almost total lack of stability, and of course the risk of further catastrophic damage. A brace can provide some degree of stability, but one big hit, or one bad flex, and kaboom.
So, yes, Rivers WAS able to play on it once the initial swelling and pain "calmed down" enough.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Didn't Phil Rivers play with a torn/partially torn ACL during the AFCC game a few years back? That was the game Tomlinson sat out. >>
Yes, but I'm pretty sure he didn't play any mre in the game where he tore it. He did play the next week, which is a damn amazing feat, but he did have a week for it to "Calm" down. >>
torn ACL's "calm" down...thats a new one. >>
They do calm down. I had a fully torn ACL myself - and had it for 15+ months before getting it repaired surgically. The initial pain subsides and you are able to walk on it (or even ride a bike) without pain. HOWEVER...the knee is also incredibly unstable and you are one tiny pebble on the sidewalk away from being in excruciating pain. I can't even imagine trying to play football with one - or a golf tournament, like Tiger Woods did.
Tabe
"During his Monday news conference, Bears coach Lovie Smith referred to Cutler's injury as an "MCL sprain," adding that this confirmed what the team had suspected at the time."
Jack Youngblood of the Rams once played with a broken leg, recent seasons have seen Tom Brady play with a broken foot bone, Ben Roethisberger with a broken nose, Bret Farve with countless injuries, and many others too, in mostly less important games.
A knee sprain, depending on one's personal pain threshold, could be very painful too.
I am not surprised Cutler's teammates stuck up for him, what would one expect from your professional family ?
I would guess his Mom and Dad probably felt similar.
<< <i>Some guys can play through pain some can't. >>
Exactly. Also this is part of the difference between being a legend and being, well, Jay Cutler.
<< <i>
<< <i>Some guys can play through pain some can't. >>
I agree with that and I think most people do. That some can is a function of God given ability and usually not personal strength. In this particular case, the doctors recommended against him playing and Cutler himself felt the same. Now I realize there are instances where players play against doctors' orders but should anyone be faulted for not doing so? I've seen Cutler play at least a couple of dozen times and I've not seen anything of him that would say that he's not tough. If he could have played, it makes no rational sense that he wouldn't have and no one has posited any proof that he could have. What's more, if Manning or Brady were in the same exact situation, would anyone be questioning them?
The standard, when someone is hurt, should be this:
If it were YOUR son, would you allow him to play. >>
I totally agree, Im not an apoligist for Cutler by any stretch however in this situation we need to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
Sure in some cases players can or are at least WILLING to go back into a game ie: Brady playing with his foot fracture or when coaches had to hide Frank Gores helmet to prevent him going back into a game with a hip injury, in all cases we dont have a clue how this injury was feeling and maybe Cutler felt his teams best chances for winning was with him on the bench.
Quite true, the 3rd stinger had better QB stats in the conference championship contest.
Might be interesting to note some guys who are or were pro football players, making big money to absorb some pain,
commented somewaht unfavorably towards Jay.
They include Deion Sanders, Maurice-Jones Drew, Asnate Samuels, Darnell Dockett,
and Bucs former all star LB, Derrick Brooks who twittered most unkindly,
"there is no medicine for a guy with no guts and heart."
At least no one was narrow-minded, unforgiving, and hypocritical enough, to call him Marsha Cutler.
" First off, Deion Sanders has no business talking about football toughness. "
Perhaps not, he makes his current living/business by talking about and evaluating many aspects of pro FB, a game he did actually play,
and played quite well, unlike Cutler, but has no credibility talking about certain aspects, like a possible pain threshold from a sprained knee,
neither do many other former and current professional FB players or coaches, like Mike Ditka and Philip Rivers too,
their personal opinions are not at all viable,
per a baseball card collecting message board poster.
.
Dave
<< <i>While we're at it, why don't we get on Marsha Brady's case for missing a whole year due to "injury"? >>
I can think of a thing or two of Marcia Brady's that I'd like to get on, but her case isn't one of them...
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<< <i>" First off, Deion Sanders has no business talking about football toughness. "
Perhaps not, he makes his current living/business by talking about and evaluating many aspects of pro FB, a game he did actually play,
and played quite well, unlike Cutler, but has no credibility talking about certain aspects, like a possible pain threshold from a sprained knee,
neither do many other former and current professional FB players or coaches, like Mike Ditka and Philip Rivers too,
their personal opinions are not at all viable,
per a baseball card collecting message board poster.
.
Jaxxr, just because their physical ability allowed them to make it to the NFL, it does not mean their mental ability to evaluate and distinguish is on that same level. In fact, many of those players are flat out dumb, and many are flat out criminals and low lifes who were just lucky because they were born with the ability of world class speed and highly effective fast twitch muscles. So what that they are on T.V. It is an entertainment show. Does anyone really value what someone like Michael Irvin has to say? God, I hope not.
Others were born with a higher intelligece and analytical ability, regardless if they played at the NFL level or not.
But since you do believe in the word of the players so heavily(and lambaste an intelligent poster for saying otherwise), it is quite interesting that you completely dismissed the words of the AL pitchers when they said they feared many other hitters ahead of Jim RIce. The funny thing is the pitchers were telling you their exact feelings on the specific feared topic at hand...and YOU were tying to tell THEM what THEY felt!! LOL!
Dude, stop bouncing back and forth on your philosophies to suit your emotional needs.
So the poster Baseball is ridiculed for putting his mind against some NFL player's mind....but your feelings are more valid than the AL pitcher's feelings??? Or more valid than the AL mangers thoughts/actions with the intentional walks(or lack thereof with Rice). Hmmmm.
There's a difference between playing hurt and playing injured. I seriously doubt that Cutler would not want to come back into a game of this magnitude if he weren't injured beyond the extent of effectiveness. I mean, a regular season game in October, maybe...but the NFC Championship game, really?? If he had that lack of heart or desire he wouldn't be a successful NFL QB in the first place. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I believe his teammates. And Jaxxr's point about his teammates backing him up solely because he's their QB not well-founded, especially in this day and age when "unnamed" or "unidentified" players snipe to the media all the time, subtly or otherwise, about a fellow teammate's lack of effort, or otherwise. If he let the team down because he could have gone back in and played but wouldn't, you can bet that something would have been said. Remember TO blaming McNabb for the Super Bowl loss because he was gassed in the 4th quarter? Or just a couple of weeks ago when D-Jax cast blame on Vick on Philly's final drive vs GB for panicking and not being deliberate enough and spiking the ball after his reception. You better believe that Cutler would be criticized from within if he were dogging it.
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Geez, Philly fans aren't even this tough. LOL
<< <i>yeah and this is the same M.J. Drew who missed the last two games of the season (when the Jags were competing for the playoff berth) with the same injury (MCL tear) correct? Deion Sanders...the guy who avoided contact more that a kicker during his entire career. I get it, people don't like Cutler. He isn't warm and fuzzy and he gives off 'bad body language'. Strange how his teammates don't feel the same as the people who are never around him. >>
Ummmm.. not the same injury... MCL tear and MCL sprain (even a grade 1) are VERY different.
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As someone who watched every Bear game this year I can tell you Cutler took a beating (led the league with 52 sacks) and never once threw his o-line under the bus. That Giants game was one of the worst beatings I have seen a QB take since the '85 Bears were around. My point is Cutler is a tuff guy, if he gets just an average o-line I think he and Matt Forte will be very good. A number one receiver wouldn't hurt either, lol.
O- line stats
Also, this below doesn't exactly paint him as tough...which we already know he was NOT
"PRORehab Library
Turf Toe - What is it?
In 2000, Deion Sanders, one of the greatest multi sport athletes of all time was forced to retire from the NFL due to injury. This injury was not a knee or ankle injury, or even a back, head, or neck injury that have ended so many great careers. This injury was to his left great toe. He suffered through the 1999 season and opted for surgical intervention to repair the damage but was unable to overcome the complications and was forced to retire from an injury commonly known as “turf toe”."
"Of course it is impossible to know exactly how Cutler felt, and how his perception of, or real pain felt,
and how it would affect his performance."
That is still true.
I later added;
"Might be interesting to note some guys who are or were pro football players, making big money to absorb some pain,
commented somewhat unfavorably towards Jay."
Still feel it is interesting to hear other opinions.
I made no conclusions, and can understand the feelings about Cutler in either direction.
Pro football is quite different than MLB,
An active pro FB player Cutler will likely never be a league leader in anything other than INTs, and will likely never get any HOF consideration, performs in a much shorter season with entirely different situations,
yet some are so shallow, they must introduce a past baseball player, HOFer Jim Rice into the football football injury conservation.
HOWEVER,
When it came to using the words and thoughts of the AL pitchers in deciding who the most feared hitter in the league was...you dismissed their thoughts, and instead made your thoughts more prevailing(despite having zero credible evidence to provide with your famous kingman/wagner methods).
The absolute funny thing about that is the pitchers were telling you who they feared most...the exact thing we were looking to see...yet you seemed to think that your assessment of Rice being hte most feared hitter in the day was more valid. So basically, you were telling them what THEY felt, LOL!
Same for the managers thoughts. They didnt't intentionally walk him, and did not fear him like you think they did. In fact, they feared many other hitters more than Rice,LOL.
So it has nothing to do with Jim Rice, and everything to do with your emotions causing you to be a hypocrite.
Baseball, excellent post above. That is spot on...but you know darn well something goofy will be said to dismiss some excellent logic you provided. Deion provided no logic...jaxxr was seemingly born without any logic.
Back in 2003, recalll the crucifixtion of a guy named Bartman, a life-long, rock solid, Cubs fan. He reached up for a foul ball (and yes it's been proven ad nauseum that the ball was foul) and deflected it away from Alou. At this point the Cubs were up 3-0 on the Marlins, with 5 outs to go. Anybody remember how many runs the Cubs then gave up to the Marlins??? Nope, but I'll bet most folks remember Bartman's name. The Cubs then gave up EIGHT runs and blew the game. Then on to game 7 where they also had a lead and blew the game and NLCS. Now Bartman under God knows how many stupid death threats was forced to move to Neptune to stay alive.
What do the whacky Chicago faithful do? The buy the ball (or was it the REAL ball) for over $100k and blow it up outside Harry Carey's restaurant. Wish I had $100k+ to just waste in a stupid manner. Proved nothing, but irrational stupidity. Fans needed a scapegoat and Bartman was the Cutler of the day. Surely it couldn't be the performance of the Cub players, or da Bears, just laser focus on the most obvious victim and burn his a%& alive.
Like Frodo struggling to toss the ring into the volcano, the ball had to go. In spite of Barman's apology (which was not necessary IMO), he was last seen hitching a ride to Pluto, apparently Neptune wasn't far enough away for the crazies in the Windy City.
Cutler, hurt or not, was not the sole reason da Bears lost the game, he's just the most convenient target. I doubt he'll ever wear a Bear's uniform again.
Anybody see the standing ovation given to Bill Buckner when he returned to Fenway Park? HE really blew it in the WS, but we got over the disappointment. Some fans have more class than others.
Unlike yourself, I do respect almost all opinions, as I do realize there are reasonable alternate views. Although it may have seemed apparent by calling one QB "Marsha", there may have been a likely a favoritism among NFL QBs, possibly a desire to "protect" Cutler,
which is of course natural and quite common for most fans, unlike abnormal fixations, obsessions, and hatred for HOF baseball players of the past.
A causal, unofficial, and very private anonymous "poll" of some players, regarding an unquantifiable aspect, like "fear",
is not as telling as actual recorded public quotes, like the one directly and verifiable from HOFer Rich Gossage who clearly gave his impressions of a particular "feeling" a hitter may have produced, although they too are interesting, IMHO.
The actual recorded, identifiable, and very timely quotes, from former NFL players regarding a current situation, a very specific event,
is totally different from any past informal opinions on seasonal fear producing.
However, you have no problem putting your perceptions up against that of the AL pitchers who voted many players MORE feared over Jim Rice...and up against the AL managers who IBB walked other players more than Jim Rice.
Now you use Gossage and take HIS word, but now are dismissing the other 100 pitchers who gave their word that contradicts what you 'feel'. Also, not sure where you get this one season thing either. It is an overall appraisal, not just who is most feared for this one season.
You have said the baseball poll was informal, and you think that the reactions of the NFL players are NOT? THe baseball poll was more scientific than the reactions being posted, as there was a direct question, and it was answered by the exact people who had the most opportunity to fear the player in question. The pitchers were asked, "which batter do you fear most." You think Rice is most feared, they disagree with you! Unfortunately for you, since it doesn't match with your weird ideas, you dismiss it.
This is all part of your famous kingman/wagner method.
it is probably unfortunate he choose to stand on the sidelines, not continue to seek any massage, injections, or any possible therapy to allow him to possibly re-enter the very important championship game, perhaps even more consequential was his absence of offering any counselling/advice to the 2nd or 3rd string QBs, however, no one can state exactly how Jay felt, and the amount of pain or instability he could bear.
Yet it is still very interesting, and directly related to the topic, to hear the various perceptions regarding the very recent situation, from fans, current players, former players, teammates, and of course message board posters herein.
In this particular thread, the introduction of 20+ year old, informal, anonymous, opinions of seasonal fear production, shown by a former HOF baseball player, seems very insignificant and quite childish.
You are still a hypocrite, regardless how you spin it.
If the perceptions of the NFL players in an informal posting, without all the needed information, means far more than the voice of Baseball the poster, THEN
The AL pitchers answers to a direct question mean more than your perceptions of how they felt, and the decisions of the managers to walk other guys more than Rice also mean more than your theory that Rice was the most feared.
What on earth have you ever provided that would make anyone think your insight is more relevant than the voices of the AL pitchers? They were asked, "which hitter do you fear most." They voted for Murray by far...and Rice was waaaay down onthe list. Yet, you simply brush that aside and feel your thoughts on that exact question are more relevant...even though you never even faced Rice.
But now, the poster Baseball is providing thoughts on injuries that he may actually have first hand knowledge in, and you are saying his thoughts mean nothing, but rather the thoughts of NFL players who do NOT have all the information is all that matters!
Really? Has it gotten this bad with you?
As much as you would like...you can't have it both ways.
I really dont have a "philosophy" on highly paid pro football QBs playing in perhaps the only championship game they may ever experience, and how they should best help their team, every situation is unique to some extent.
You have absolutely no knowledge of my "parenting ability" and how it might apply in regard to an adult child performing his chosen work.
The fact remains,
Ben Roethisberger played with a broken nose,
Tom Brady played with a broken foot bone,
Philip Rivers played with a torn ligament,
Mark Sanchez played with a strained shoulder,
Bret Farve has played with assorted broken body parts,
and,
Jay Cutler did not play with a sprained knee.
It seems easy, to me at least, to understand the perceptions, rightfully or wrongfully, of many who commented on the situation.
However, you make your words worth more than that of the AL pitchers on a topic they were asked a direct question on, and have first hand knowledge of...and which you have no knowledge at all on.
Pretty simple. Hypocrite. Biased.
Obviously you will not recognize this, as a hypocrite or biased person simply cannot...otherwise they wouldn't be those things.
Now your doing your typical double talk, as Baseball just pointed out above.
I apologize to Baseball for replying so soon after him, because he picks you apart quite easily in his posts.
In my initial post to this thread, and in several subsequent posts,
I have clearly stated that no one, and may I add, not even HOFer Jim Rice, always a vital part to any thread, can be exactly aware of precisely how Jay felt, and the amount of pain he could personally bear.
I am still very interested-amused-entertained, by the comments about Cutler and how other players, past and present might have conducted themselves, or feel Jay should have conducted himself, in somewhat similar situations.
Unless Jay had mental impairments inflicted, it still would have been most helpful and contributory to his team, if he would have advised the 2nd and/or 3rd string QBs, who obviously had less pre-game practice, and might be able to pick up on something Jay may have noticed about the Green Bay defense while he played half a game, rather than pacing about the sidelines. Whether fully correct, or not, that aspect could add to a perception he may have "quit' on his team in their championship game.
IMO, Bears fans like Cubs fans have to focused their anger and disappointment on somebody...that somebody this time is Cutler.
well you got one thing right.
Anybody see the standing ovation given to Bill Buckner when he returned to Fenway Park? HE really blew it in the WS, but we got over the disappointment. Some fans have more class than others.
I hope for your sake that you aren't implying that Boston fans are classier than any other fanbase given the long history of racism amongst the other lack of civilities in the fanbase's history. How long did it take for Red Sox Nation to forgive Buckner? I'd say about 18 years, right around the time that the "curse" ended. Had the BoSox not won a WS, do you honestly believe any member of the "Nation" would have been tossing bouquets at Buckner? No. Newsflash, all fanbases suck, it's just those from the largest cities receive more run.
What do the whacky Chicago faithful do? The buy the ball (or was it the REAL ball) for over $100k and blow it up outside Harry Carey's restaurant. Wish I had $100k+ to just waste in a stupid manner. Proved nothing, but irrational stupidity. Fans needed a scapegoat and Bartman was the Cutler of the day. Surely it couldn't be the performance of the Cub players, or da Bears, just laser focus on the most obvious victim and burn his a%& alive.
it wasn't bought by a "fan". The ball was purchased by Seattle born & raised Grant DePorter - the manager of Harry Caray's Restaurant for a publicity/advertising grab. What difference would it make if they spent that $100k on blowing up a ball or spending that money on various ads? The accomplishment was the same. Only this one garnered national attention thus creating yet another tourist destination.
Tabe
I hope for your sake that you aren't implying that Boston fans are classier than any other fanbase given the long history of racism amongst the other lack of civilities in the fanbase's history.
For my sake? Will some evil be unleashed upon me because I expressed my opinion? BS. Care to elaborate on that entire sentence and do please flesh out the racism crap and the other lack of civilites. I'm anxious to read your examples.
Bill Buckner for your information was long ago invited back to Fenway, he simply declined. And yes he had a very tough go at the end of his WS faus pax. BTW, do google the origination of the infamous "curse", you might be enlightened as to how that came about. you might be interested to know that a local sports writer for the Boston Globe made that comment and it stuck. And yes, Buckner got a standing ovation when he did return to Fenway. Bouquets? You have some weird thoughts.
Pretty pathetic that you would label all fan bases as "they suck"...I don't think any fan base sucks, not even the Yankees, not even the Cubs or the Bears fans. Some are clearly more intolerant of player's performances and there is a very high level of expectation. When this falls short, somebody has to get hammered.
I would consider the person that acquired the infamous Bartman ball as a whacky Cubs fan. Better they had auctioned the ball and donated the money to the homeless in Chicago. Tourist destination? Don't think so, I've been there, the bars around Wrigley were cool, but you can have the rest of the place.
And yes, I'd place the Boston Red Sox fans up against any other fans. The biggest rivalry in baseball is between the Red Sox and Yankees...many times I've seen and participated in giving the Yankee pitcher a standing ovation after he was pulled after his pitching efforts came up a bit short, but his effort was indeed worthy of a valiant opponent.
Bartman and Cutler will, IMO, be forever vilified and hated beyond words by the Bears and Cubs fans...book it.
Boy, I sure hope that "for my sake" I haven't upset any crazy karma...I've so worried. BS again. You have your opinion, you just read mine...deal with it.
Bill Buckner for your information was long ago invited back to Fenway, he simply declined.
so because ownership invited him back once, that equates to complete fanbase forgiveness...that's quite a Draconian wonderland you're living in. The fact (not opinion) remains, he received the ovation AFTER the Red Sox won their second WS. If the Cubs ever cash one in I'm guessing ol' Bartman will be offered an appearance as well.
Care to elaborate on that entire sentence and do please flesh out the racism crap and the other lack of civilites. I'm anxious to read your examples.
start with Bill Russell's famous quote relating to a 'flea market of racism'. From there you can fan out to Sheffield and Matthews Jr in recent years. Not that this sort of matter is reserved to Boston, there's evidence of it in every city in relation to sport. Some cities are more infamous than others but it exists everywhere. Hence all fanbases inevitably suck including every one that I'm apart of. What Cutler is now going through isn't any different than what L.Tomlinson went through back in '08 or whenever it was. Only in this case, we're talking about a high profile QB with a charter NFL franchise in the second largest NFL market. Regardless of whatever heat Cutler is taking, it's more national than it is local. So you can curb with the Bears fan hating nonsense. Yes the sector of meatball fans are upset losing to the Packers, and there is a sector that think he's soft, but there isn't all the "hate" that you seem to think exists because you're watching the hacks on ESPN or NESN or wherever you're getting this we're "vilifying" Cutler garbage to the point where the fanbase is trying to run him out of town.
Bartman and Cutler will, IMO, be forever vilified and hated beyond words by the Bears and Cubs fans...book it.
well you clearly have the 411 on us Chicago fans down so be sure to bump this thread next year when Cutler is still with the Bears. btw, Bartman still lives and works here, so he's a bit closer than "Neptune".
I would consider the person that acquired the infamous Bartman ball as a whacky Cubs fan.
again not a Cubs fan.
Better they had auctioned the ball and donated the money to the homeless in Chicago. Tourist destination? Don't think so, I've been there, the bars around Wrigley were cool, but you can have the rest of the place.
I'm sure you did your due diligence in researching what the owners and investors (which include two high profile former Chicago athletes who do a ton of charity work) of Harry's do for area charities. Again, it's advertising. I'm not sure why you're bothered by this. You are aware that most businesses have an ad budget right? A 30 second Super Bowl ad runs $2.6m. They spent $100k for a gimmick that was shown on ESPN and every other national sports network for 1-2 minutes. What's the difference? And yes Harry's is a tourist destination despite your opinion of where it fits in the grand scope of Chicago tourism which I'm sure you have a firm grasp of from outside the area. The original Harry's is in fact located in a Chicago landmark building. Hence it's on the city tours and everything. But hey, facts just get in the way of opinion so why bother.
I just heard an interview with Jim McMahon. When asked about the situation, he said "If it were me, I would have to be dragged out of the game." Went on to say other things to state his toughness. He lightened up a bit by saying everyone is different with pain tolerance, when asked if it were fair to criticize Cutler.
This coming from a man made of glass, a guy who played less than half the team's games for three years after the Super Bowl, missed the '86 playoffs, and only had three snaps in another Bears playoff game.
All these guys criticizing need to look in the mirror.
And speaking of "toughness," Jim McMahon never played a full season in his entire career, and should be the last person to talk about "pain thresholds."
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.