Options
Papal Medal Collectors
llafoe
Posts: 7,220 ✭✭
We've recently taken the plunge into collecting Papal medals. Joe (Iosephus) and John (JRocco) have been great... we've purchase three of the books they've recommended: Roma Resurgens: Baroque Papal Medals Book, Catalogue of Papal Medals and A Pictorial Catalogue of Papal Medals 1417-1942. We're still looking for a copy of the Baldwins Auction Number 66. Tuesday 29th June 2010. The Michael Hall Collection Medallic Portraits from the Renaissance to the Nineteenth Century (Part Two) catalog.
Now for the questions...
Slabbed or unslabbed? Is NGC the only TPG that slabs Papal medals?
How do you collect... an example of every one you can obtain? an example from each Pope... original? restrike?
How do you store... in period cases? are there any albums?
Any other MUST know information about Papal medals?
Now for the questions...
Slabbed or unslabbed? Is NGC the only TPG that slabs Papal medals?
How do you collect... an example of every one you can obtain? an example from each Pope... original? restrike?
How do you store... in period cases? are there any albums?
Any other MUST know information about Papal medals?
WANTED: Cincinnati Reds TEAM Cards
0
Comments
Stacks Coin Galleries 12/07 had a nice run of Papal medals.
Jencius has a website for such medals and sends out a price list if you sign up.
It's pretty much Pius IX for me (with a lone Gregory XVI).
I haven't attempted to slab a Papal medal so they generally remain in airtites.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
<< <i>Slabbed or unslabbed? Is NGC the only TPG that slabs Papal medals? >>
Unslabbed. You will be greatly limited by looking for slabbed examples only. In addition to NGC, I've seen one slabbed by ICG (which I bought and is now no longer entombed).
<< <i>How do you collect... an example of every one you can obtain? an example from each Pope... original? restrike? >>
I focus on contemporary medals from the Renaissance and Baroque eras (~1455 - 1740). By contemporary, I mean that the medal's design is contemporary to the pope's reign. I try to get early strikes/casts when possible, but accept restrikes if they are generally authentic to the original medals. I avoid the so-called "restitution" medals which were made well after the times of the popes depicted.
<< <i>How do you store... in period cases? are there any albums? >>
Trays. Period cases sometimes appear for 19th century medals, and are more common for more recent medals, but are generally scarce. I have never seen ones for earlier medals.
<< <i>Any other MUST know information about Papal medals? >>
Probably at least 90% of the early papal medals out there are restrikes/aftercasts. Nothing wrong with them, as without them there would be almost nothing to collect, but something to be aware of.
Virtus Collection - Renaissance and Baroque Medals
I don't have the Baldwins cat you mentioned, but there have been several very large collections sold over the last 10-15 years and the cat's are useful at times. Unless they have extensive descriptions I find that they are not substitutes for the basic references (but just MHO).
As Joe indicates, most of the issues before the mid 1400s are not type contemporary to the period but are later restitutions produced especially in the 1600s and 1700s to "fill out the series." That being said, a common place to start is 1417 where Mazio begins coverage. There are a lot of ways to collect this series. One per pope is a popular "set," beginning whenever you choose to whenever you choose to cut off. A few themes I also focus on are silver issues 1800 to date, issues related to Jubilee/Holy Years, issues related to St Peters and issues related to the life of Christ. Other popular themes which come to mind are buildings/cathedrals, historical events, proclamation of church doctrine, etc. One per pope is a very good and manageable place to start and certainly from 1900 to present you can get most silvers affordably. The annual issues of Paul VI (1963-1978) can be quite inexpensive, even in silver, and offer a wide variety of themes and interesting artistic styles so that might be a "set" worth going after as you are getting settled in.
I've only seen a few of these slabbed, own none myself and I can't recall ever buying one. I think that TPGs have little value in this series but that's a matter of personal taste.
If you're interested in "originals" for the period before 1800 or so you will have very little to collect unless you can afford silver and gold issues (which can be exceedingly expensive). In fact, my read is that in the earlier period the papacy used (or issued if you will) just the gold and silver and the minters (private families) produced the bronze, both at the time and later, as souvenirs or to collectors.
I love getting contemporary cases when I can find them, but before 1900 or so are rarer than the medals. Most of my medals without cases are kept in boxes in oversized mylar Safe-flips arranged by date or theme.
The Jencius site is pretty useful, especially for Vatican City issues and especially for issues after the late 1970s. Allen Berman, who wrote the papal coins catalogue, used to have a site and periodically offers medals on his World Coin News ads. I think both are very reliable, knowledgeable, and trustworthy and I've bought from both over the years but expect to pay full retail. Ebay always has a good offering of material altho prices can range widely from absurdly cheap to absurdly expensive. A fair amount of material offered on ebay are just souvenirs/unofficial issues so its important to have reference material before you wade in and remember, caveat emptor. Auctions have been useful for better items at times but I've not had much success at coin shows - maybe I go to the wrong shows - altho came across the odd buy at times.
That's my perspective, feel free to post more questions as you go ... time for more coffee.
Which dealers carry Papal Medals?
I bought a 17th-18th century Gregory XIII Hugenots Medal restrike from Chris Clements at a great price.
Have you checked Jencius and Berman yet? As mentioned, they both tend to have reasonably good offerings of medals. eBay is also a reasonable source if you're careful. For instance, I noticed several of the Greg medals are currently offered/sold over the past month at a wide range of prices.
PS, I can't see the image you posted.
Looks like you've got a nice example of Modesti vol. III #683. If I read the cat properly, these were struck periodically during the 18th and 19th centuries so are encountered fairly often altho many have been mishandled. These are close copies of originals, an obvious distinction being no "dot" preceding the obverse and reverse inscriptions as well as what looks like slightly larger lettering. There are several other restrikes of the issue but many seem to be less finely executed as well as in what looks like brass or white metal. If I recall correctly, there was a discussion of one of these a couple of years.
I just received a package from Peter Jencius... ordered Friday, received today; try to beat that!
I received the Mazio, Francesco (ed.) (revised by Edward Jencius) A Pictorial Catalogue of Papal Medals, 1417-1942, as struck by the Mint of Rome for the Vatican (NY: Edward Jencius 1977) 135 pp. book. Nice for photos, but I'm not going to learn too much from this book. I should receive the Whitman, Nathan T. and John L. Varriano (edd.), Roma Resurgens: Papal Medals for the Age of the Baroque (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Museum of Art 1983) book tomorrow. Maybe that'll include some basic collecting information?
Where can I find/buy these books:
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. I (Roma: Accademia Italiani di Studi numismatici 2002). [ 263 medals, to Hadrian VI, 1523]
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. II (Roma: De Cristoforo 2003). [230 medals, to Paul IV, 1559]
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. III (Roma: Mediapress 2004). [to Gregory XIII, 1585]
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. IV (Roma: Mediapress 2006). [293 medals, to Paul V, 1621]
linky
<< <i>Here's the link on the 1572 medal I was thinking of....
linky >>
Good read... this is a very interesting medal as our first medal. My father's family were French Hugenots and now, 400+ years later, I'm a Catholic collecting Papal medals... go figure!
<< <i>Where can I find/buy these books:
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. I (Roma: Accademia Italiani di Studi numismatici 2002). [ 263 medals, to Hadrian VI, 1523]
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. II (Roma: De Cristoforo 2003). [230 medals, to Paul IV, 1559]
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. III (Roma: Mediapress 2004). [to Gregory XIII, 1585]
Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (ed. Adolfo Modesti) Vol. IV (Roma: Mediapress 2006). [293 medals, to Paul V, 1621] >>
Three of them (vol. 2-4) are available at www.artbooks.com.
BTW, that Gregery XIII medal has a great look to it, even if it is a copy. I had been thinking about purchasing it myself, but the coffers have been a bit low.
Virtus Collection - Renaissance and Baroque Medals
I noticed the first medal I purchased (Hugenots) is 30.5mm, the size of the same medal in 'Roma Resurgens' is 31mm and in Lincoln, the original is 30.5mm (size 9) and the copies are 36mm (size 11). Since I don't know what I'm doing, what does this mean to me?
There's some variability in size of the early issues and there's no reason to assume that the size and weight of various restrikes are the same as originals or even other groups of restrikes. That being said, Lincoln was published over 100 years ago and uses the Mionnet scale which is at best an approximation, that is, you use the number closest to the actual size of the medal. It may provide a sense of size, but is not at all accurate.
The medal in RR is either a 682 or 684 and it appears that RR rounded measurements to the nearest mm. Also, RR mentions that their example was gilt and mounted so you're sure where they took the measurement.
Modesti gives the following sizes of specific examples which I assume he actually examined and measured: 682/original an AE at 32mm; 683 (restrike without the dots) an AR at 31mm; 684 (restrike) an AE at 32.2mm. He also illustrates several other varieties of restrikes, which I assume are more recent, for which he provides pix but no measurements. Remember that this is probably the most commonly encountered early papal medal (maybe 6 or 8 of various varieties on ebay worldwide at the moment) and it seems to have been extensively reissued over the years.
My 683 looks almost identical to the medal you posted and appears to be about 30.5mm (battery is dead on my calipers, rats).
Really gorgeous Pius IX Medal, especially the reverse with its convex depth
@Chesspagan
Is this your medal? Is this the bigger size medal? I have one that is 46mm and I think a bigger size exist. I bought this to add to my J.Wiener Cathedral Medals collection due to its 3D effect. Thanks.
Gregory XVI medal for Anno VII (1837) by Girometti, 51mm with the San Paolo ruins on reverse.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
While I agree that Papal Medals should be unslabbed, does anyone have an opinion of the difference between NGC and Pcgs grading of Papal medals?
I was pleased with the medal I bought from Moruzzi (Italy). There are lots of images by Pope on their site.
https://shop.moruzzi.it/en/medals/papal-medals/medals-from-pius-vii-chiaramonti-1800-1823.html
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
I purchased another Papal medal (c1828) from Moruzzi Numismatica a few days ago only to receive this email today. Apparently the rules have changed.
"Hi XXXXX,
Sorry but we can't ship the medal to US.
We already refunded you directly on PayPal.
If you've a relative or a friend in Italy or inside EU he could buy it on your behalf.
Regards.
Nicola Mecci"
There is another thread on one of the coin boards discussed the shipping of "antiquities" out of the EU but I can't locate it again.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
For a XIX century medal?
Pius IX, Anno XIX, Restoration of the Vespignini Arch by G. Bianchi.
NGC MS65BN.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
I had to talk myself out of that one a few times.
Glad to see you picked it up.
I have run in to that problem.
I don't bid on Italian auctions.
They have some nice pieces sometimes but most can't be shipped out of Italy.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pius-IX
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I am curious about having papal medals slabbed. If it is a restrike and not original will TPG's slab them and label them as restrikes or will they not slab a restrike medal?