Now these counterfeits make sense! They're 19th-century harbingers of today's Chinese fakes. Take a set of facsimile dies, and strike yourself some "coins" in a cheaper metal than that of the authentic piece. Platinum is cheaper than gold, so use fraudulent dies to strike a $5 "gold" coin with $1.20 (or whatever) worth of platinum, then plate it with gold to complete the illusion.
No tiny drills, no lilliputian funnels, no small buckets.
By the way, I hope nobody seriously thinks I don't respect the opinions of my numismatic betters! >>
No micro funnels would be needed. Nor micro buckets.
Platinum shot would do just fine as they don't need the entire space filled with platinum to achieve the proper weight.
Shortened platinum rods would also do, as would platinum flakes packed in with a metal rod.
There are lots of ways to go about this without using micro funnels.
A gold plated platinum 1844 half eagle is actually mentioned on page 46, but they say it is of correct diameter, however the linked one above says 22mm.
I don't recall the source now, but somewhere I read that the Spanish gathered up the platinum in South America and dumped it at sea to prevent counterfeiting.
This is from an issue of The Western Literary Messenger, February 5, 1848:
DANGEROUS COUNTERFEITS. -- We copied, a short time since, a notice of a counterfeit quarter eagle, purporting to be of the New Orleans mint, dated 1843, and so admirably executed that the best judges in New York pronounced it genuine, and even at the mint in Philadelphia, where it was submitted to the usual tests, it was thought to be good.
Upon being sawed in two, however, it was discovered to be a mere shell of gold, the interior being filled with silver, or more probably an amalgam of silver and platina, as its specific gravity was equal to gold.
Counterfeit silver coin, scarcely less perfectly executed, has lately been detected in Cincinnati. The Gazette of that city says:
We were shown a few days ago, a couple of counterfeit Mexican dollars, which were paid out at one of the Banks in this city, to a broker, who received them without any suspicion as to their genuineness, and discovered their true character rather by accident than otherwise.
In appearance they are fac similies of the genuine coin, in weight neither deficient nor too heavy, and in ring so as to excite suspicion in only the most practiced ear, and even then a suspicion which would be quite as likely to vanish as to lead to further trial. The aquafortis, and all other tests commonly applied in banks, they set at defiance.
This counterfeit consists of a thin silver case, a head and tail part, joined together at the edges so nicely as to prevent detection, filled in with copper. The only way of detecting counterfeits of this kind is by the file, and that must be applied to every piece separately.
A matter of very pleasant contemplation, we should think, to that class of politicians styled "the hards," who get up a regular storm of indignation every time a new counterfeit bank note appears.
In one respect this counterfeit is even more dangerous than that of the gold coin first mentioned, inasmuch as silver is generally taken with less scrutiniy than gold.
So, clearly, in 1848, there was sufficient profit involved that at least one skilled metalworker would spend at least some time doing what sounds like hollowing out real coins. Perhaps this is what skilled metalworkers (who had their own tools) did during slow times when there wasn't legitimate work to be had.
I saw one sandwhich coin that was turned into a clock. In order to open the watch, there was a section on the rim that could be pushed in to unlock the lid. It was quite impressive - iirc it was done on a $20 liberty coin. I could tell something was 'off' with the coin, but could not tell what until someone showed me.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
This is the first time I have heard that the platina filling might have been alloyed to bring the specific gravity down to that of gold. It would certainly be plausible.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
the hardness of platinum (and even moreso osmium and iridium) combined with the High melting points are going to make these some tough metals to work with
I'm skeptical of that newspaper's reporting. The same page says that the queen of Spain was close to kicking the royal bucket, but she lived until the early 1900s. Also, it quotes the Gazette from Cincinnati, whose editor obviously had a political axe to grind against pro-specie, anti-paper currency politicians.
<< <i>I'm skeptical of that newspaper's reporting. The same page says that the queen of Spain was close to eminent death, but she lived until the early 1900s. Also, it quotes the Gazette from Cincinnati, whose editor obviously had a political axe to grind against pro-specie, anti-paper currency politicians. >>
That would have been an eminent death indeed, but apparently it was not imminent.........
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I'm skeptical of that newspaper's reporting. The same page says that the queen of Spain was close to eminent death, but she lived until the early 1900s. Also, it quotes the Gazette from Cincinnati, whose editor obviously had a political axe to grind against pro-specie, anti-paper currency politicians.
Well, all I can say is that it's easier to proclaim oneself a "skeptic" than to do research.
I'm sure this will shock you, but even in the 19th Century, I understand that it was possible to get sick (even be reported close to death), but somehow recover and live for a long time afterwards. Considering the political turmoil that Isabella lived through, I'm not that surprised that reports of the health were sometimes exagerated.
As anyone familiar with 19th Century newspapers can tell you, most of their editors had political axes to grind - that doesn't always mean that their facts were wrong.
Dentuck, I'm beginning to get the idea that you don't actually respect the opinions of your numismatic betters on this issue.
I suggest that it's likely that most of these types of counterfeits were destroyed shortly after they were discovered, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. I also suggest that it's likely that there weren't that many of these counterfeits in existance in the first place (how many skilled metalworkers were criminals?) and it's likely that the scope of the problem may have been exaggerated - these were high quality counterfeits and were rightly feared by merchants, to whom the loss of several dollars would have been significant.
However, I also have the mental image of you standing there with your eyes shut, fingers in your ears and loudly singing "la la la la la" whenever anyone (even pistareen, denga or Capt Henway) submits any primary evidence.
I happened to be searching through Google Books again and tripped across this information in the 1878 Mint Report. I'm sufficiently interested in the subject that I thought I'd post it to this thread:
I have long been impressed with the belief that the worst danger which threatens our gold coin, from counterfeiters, is the filling with an inferior metal or alloy. By this art the piece presents genuine exteriors, but the inner part having been removed, a disk of platinum, pure or alloyed, is inserted in its place and closed with a ribbed rim of gold. It is, therefore, partly genuine and partly counterfeit, and its value is reduced by several dollars, differing according to the denomination of the piece.
The largest chance of spoliation of course occurs with the twenty-dollar piece, but the pieces of ten and five dollars have also been filled. So far the mischief has been very limited, as it evidently requires first-class workmen, and is slow work; but pieces of this sort are, of all false issues, the most difficult to detect.
Some experiments were made at the Philadelphia mint in 1860 to determine whether this fraud might not be prevented by materially lessening the thickness of the coin and consequently enlarging its diameter. . .
Here's the link for those who want to read the rest of the original text.
<< <i>......... We made our own fishing sinkers from melted lead wheel weights when I was a kid too. >>
Yeah we did that too! One could actually purchase moulds for the different sizes. We used bullets too and in our case that was principly unjacketed 22's so they worked fairly well. Of course that was also the blissful era when a kid with a rifle did not cause headlines. --- I give a big plus to the idea that labor was basically free in another time. I remember reading a transcription of an early day Yankee's diary in which he himself manufactured a large iron kettle. On what we later came to celebrate as Christmas Day. People who have little money do everything that needs doing or they do without. I will point out that Connecticut is sometimes called 'The Nutmeg State'. That's because the Yankees formerly would spend their cold winters turning out wooden objects on homemade lathes intended to simulate the spice nutmeg. It was quite a lucrative industry apparently. ---
Many, many perfect transactions with other members. Ask please.
Back in the mid 70's and all the way to the mid 90's, Chinese coin dealers were taking 1 Dollar Yuans and cutting them. They would cut them half shave off layers of silver afterwards they would put them back together. It may not seem like they can shave off much silver but if done to hundred of coins the silver dust starts to add up.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Just linking to some of the platinum counterfeits the ANS has.
1844 half eagle
1869-S half eagle >>
Now these counterfeits make sense! They're 19th-century harbingers of today's Chinese fakes. Take a set of facsimile dies, and strike yourself some "coins" in a cheaper metal than that of the authentic piece. Platinum is cheaper than gold, so use fraudulent dies to strike a $5 "gold" coin with $1.20 (or whatever) worth of platinum, then plate it with gold to complete the illusion.
No tiny drills, no lilliputian funnels, no small buckets.
By the way, I hope nobody seriously thinks I don't respect the opinions of my numismatic betters! >>
No micro funnels would be needed. Nor micro buckets.
Platinum shot would do just fine as they don't need the entire space filled with platinum to achieve the proper weight.
Shortened platinum rods would also do, as would platinum flakes packed in with a metal rod.
There are lots of ways to go about this without using micro funnels.
A gold plated platinum 1844 half eagle is actually mentioned on page 46, but they say it is of correct diameter, however the linked one above says 22mm.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
This is from an issue of The Western Literary Messenger, February 5, 1848:
DANGEROUS COUNTERFEITS. -- We copied, a short time since, a notice of a counterfeit quarter eagle, purporting to be of the New Orleans mint, dated 1843, and so admirably executed that the best judges in New York pronounced it genuine, and even at the mint in Philadelphia, where it was submitted to the usual tests, it was thought to be good.
Upon being sawed in two, however, it was discovered to be a mere shell of gold, the interior being filled with silver, or more probably an amalgam of silver and platina, as its specific gravity was equal to gold.
Counterfeit silver coin, scarcely less perfectly executed, has lately been detected in Cincinnati. The Gazette of that city says:
We were shown a few days ago, a couple of counterfeit Mexican dollars, which were paid out at one of the Banks in this city, to a broker, who received them without any suspicion as to their genuineness, and discovered their true character rather by accident than otherwise.
In appearance they are fac similies of the genuine coin, in weight neither deficient nor too heavy, and in ring so as to excite suspicion in only the most practiced ear, and even then a suspicion which would be quite as likely to vanish as to lead to further trial. The aquafortis, and all other tests commonly applied in banks, they set at defiance.
This counterfeit consists of a thin silver case, a head and tail part, joined together at the edges so nicely as to prevent detection, filled in with copper. The only way of detecting counterfeits of this kind is by the file, and that must be applied to every piece separately.
A matter of very pleasant contemplation, we should think, to that class of politicians styled "the hards," who get up a regular storm of indignation every time a new counterfeit bank note appears.
In one respect this counterfeit is even more dangerous than that of the gold coin first mentioned, inasmuch as silver is generally taken with less scrutiniy than gold.
So, clearly, in 1848, there was sufficient profit involved that at least one skilled metalworker would spend at least some time doing what sounds like hollowing out real coins. Perhaps this is what skilled metalworkers (who had their own tools) did during slow times when there wasn't legitimate work to be had.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
This is the first time I have heard that the platina filling might have been alloyed to bring the specific gravity down to that of gold. It would certainly be plausible.
TD
Lead - 1.5
Tin - 1.5
Zinc - 2.5
Gold - 2.5 - 3
Silver - 2.5 - 3
Aluminum - 2.5 - 3
Copper - 3
Brass - 3
Bronze - 3
Nickel - 4
Platinum - 4 - 4.5
Steel - 4 - 4.5
Iron - 4.5
Palladium - 4.75
Rhodium - 6
Titanium - 6
Hardened Steel - 7 - 8
Tungsten - 7.5
Tungsten Carbide - 8.5 - 9
the hardness of platinum (and even moreso osmium and iridium) combined with the High melting points are going to make these some tough metals to work with
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I'm skeptical of that newspaper's reporting. The same page says that the queen of Spain was close to eminent death, but she lived until the early 1900s. Also, it quotes the Gazette from Cincinnati, whose editor obviously had a political axe to grind against pro-specie, anti-paper currency politicians. >>
That would have been an eminent death indeed, but apparently it was not imminent.........
"Thank you, Your Eminence. Please alert His Royal Highness."
"His Royal Highness is indisposed. What of His Excellency?"
"Excellent. Alert His Excellency about Her Majesty's eminence."
Well, all I can say is that it's easier to proclaim oneself a "skeptic" than to do research.
I'm sure this will shock you, but even in the 19th Century, I understand that it was possible to get sick (even be reported close to death), but somehow recover and live for a long time afterwards. Considering the political turmoil that Isabella lived through, I'm not that surprised that reports of the health were sometimes exagerated.
As anyone familiar with 19th Century newspapers can tell you, most of their editors had political axes to grind - that doesn't always mean that their facts were wrong.
Dentuck, I'm beginning to get the idea that you don't actually respect the opinions of your numismatic betters on this issue.
I suggest that it's likely that most of these types of counterfeits were destroyed shortly after they were discovered, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. I also suggest that it's likely that there weren't that many of these counterfeits in existance in the first place (how many skilled metalworkers were criminals?) and it's likely that the scope of the problem may have been exaggerated - these were high quality counterfeits and were rightly feared by merchants, to whom the loss of several dollars would have been significant.
However, I also have the mental image of you standing there with your eyes shut, fingers in your ears and loudly singing "la la la la la" whenever anyone (even pistareen, denga or Capt Henway) submits any primary evidence.
It's not an image that flatters you.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I have long been impressed with the belief that the worst danger which threatens our gold coin, from counterfeiters, is the filling with an inferior metal or alloy. By this art the piece presents genuine exteriors, but the inner part having been removed, a disk of platinum, pure or alloyed, is inserted in its place and closed with a ribbed rim of gold. It is, therefore, partly genuine and partly counterfeit, and its value is reduced by several dollars, differing according to the denomination of the piece.
The largest chance of spoliation of course occurs with the twenty-dollar piece, but the pieces of ten and five dollars have also been filled. So far the mischief has been very limited, as it evidently requires first-class workmen, and is slow work; but pieces of this sort are, of all false issues, the most difficult to detect.
Some experiments were made at the Philadelphia mint in 1860 to determine whether this fraud might not be prevented by materially lessening the thickness of the coin and consequently enlarging its diameter. . .
Here's the link for those who want to read the rest of the original text.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>.........
We made our own fishing sinkers from melted lead wheel weights when I was a kid too.
>>
Yeah we did that too! One could actually purchase moulds for the different sizes. We used bullets too and in our case that was principly unjacketed 22's so they worked fairly well. Of course that was also the blissful era when a kid with a rifle did not cause headlines.
---
I give a big plus to the idea that labor was basically free in another time. I remember reading a transcription of an early day Yankee's diary in which he himself manufactured a large iron kettle. On what we later came to celebrate as Christmas Day. People who have little money do everything that needs doing or they do without. I will point out that Connecticut is sometimes called 'The Nutmeg State'. That's because the Yankees formerly would spend their cold winters turning out wooden objects on homemade lathes intended to simulate the spice nutmeg. It was quite a lucrative industry apparently.
---
The Metals Scale of Hardness
.
The Metals Scale of Hardnessh
is this moh's scale?
.
The Metals Scale of Hardnessh
is this moh's scale?
.
You are thinking of the Smoe Scale!
You are thinking of the Smoe Scale!
just came to me the one i am confusing is for gems.
.