Should an auction house comment on clearly overgraded coins??
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
- - - - - - or tell us when the same coin had a much lower grade in the past??
Ed
0
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
Comments
The auction house should make an effort to describe the coin without deception, but in a way that would make buyers want to bid on it.
I've known two dealers to give spot on descriptions, Mark Feld, and John Wooten. Any others I have dealt with have really made me scratch my head on what they claim is pretty, spot on, rainbow, liners, etc.
It is amazing how many of these pieces have traveled the road of raw, third world holder, NGC, PCGS, up grades, down grades...but still the very same coin.
No, the auction house owes you nothing but facts. Speculation about grades is like the grades themselves, subjective. BUT, the facts regarding provenance and past sales should be published (If known).
<< <i>The consignors would be furious. >>
They almost certainly would be.
That said, if I ran an auction house and were convinced that a would-be consignment coin was obviously over-graded, I would give the consignor a choice. He/she could consign it and have it described as looking over-graded, or not consign it.
Yes, some potential consignments would be lost that way. But I believe that would be offset by a better reputation, and bidders with more confidence and trust. That, in turn, could lead to stronger bids/prices, and later, more consignments. Am I dreaming?
Edited to add: MadMonk, thank you for your extremely kind comment. You made my day. And it's good to see you post.
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<< <i>The consignors would be furious. >>
They almost certainly would be.
That said, if I ran an auction house and were convinced that a would-be consignment coin was obviously over-graded, I would give the consignor a choice. He/she could consign it and have it described as looking over-graded, or not consign it.
Yes, some potential consignments would be lost that way. But I believe that would be offset by a better reputation, and bidders with more confidence and trust. That, in turn, could lead to stronger bids/prices, and later, more consignments. Am I dreaming?
Edited to add: MadMonk, thank you for your extremely kind comment. You made my day. And it's good to see you post. >>
Agree with Mark. The auction house should be concerned with its reputation and not selling overgraded coins and giving coins most their accurate description should be of paramount importance.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If you brought a horrible 6 , or even 7 figure painting to Christie's or Sotheby's, they would refuse the consignment. >>
if a painting is valued at 6 or 7 figures, we can assume it will be described as whatever condition it's in- and will bring bidders in for that level.
<< <i>The consignors would be furious. >>
A dealer friend consigned a Continental dollar NGC AU50 to a major auction several years ago. The world famous cataloguer's comment paraphrased: "While by currently accepted standards some might call this coin AU, it is of a quality which for those of us who have observed this issue over time might well remember when it was called a high-end VF " $30K coin not sold. No more $500K+ consignments.
The auctioneer is an agent of the consignor. The rest of the world doesn't function like the EAC, noting details and color and then subtracting for each notable flaw, impairment, insufficiency, etc. Virtues sell coins, problems do not.
Raw coins: it's open season, but raw coins appearing in major auctions today represent waaay less than 1% of a sale by number of lots or percentage of total value realized for the sale with very few exceptions.
I cannot think of a major auctioneer whose terms of sale do not state that sale of major-TPG graded coins is essentially absolute and cannot be returned for any reason other than issues of authenticity.
So you better build your own knowledge base. The fallacy that all the information is available, or that data accessible via the Net can inform one fully enough, is real; ignoring it is like going to Vegas. For you it's a gamble, for the house it's not.
I recently bought a pre-1850 Seated 50c in gem. 5 minted, 3 known (per Dave Akers). The holder credited it to a set-builder who had had experts buy all his coins. It was a great group of coins, some of which were flat-out wonderful. To many, this was the great pedigree. I rather thought it was a high grade, highly focused, professionally assembled group of trophies. I think the owner learned more about his coins after he bought them. This is not a knock on him.
However...
The catalogue stated it was previously from the Floyd Starr sale. I had the pedigree changed by the grading service because Starr was a true connoissuer and student across a broad range of areas within the hobby.
You could say I am a coin snob (true), that I was trying to obscure a more recent appearance and price record (secondary gain, surely, but I was not unconscious of this, even though the sale was half a decade ago) but the coin had a history and pedigree I wanted to stress and which, on a purely numismatic basis, I thought was more important.
I'm glad the data is not there for you. Gives me an advantage that current coin buyers don't have. Want the full skinny? Hire me or someone like me as your agent. Or build a numismatic library.
Develop "sweat equity" instead of thinking currently available information is the only universe from which relevant data can be derived.
I say it again and again; "data is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom". Wisdom is gained by experience.
When a friend bought a raw 1793 H1c a few years for his very knowledgeable "billionaire" a few years ago, Stacks graded it "Ch. AU". The collector-buyer knew the coin from 30+ years ago and he authorized an agent bid that he and a few knowledgeable dealers and collectors knew was the market price for a 64BN. The agent was in the know on both technical and market factors. It was graded 64BN by our hosts. There were at least 5 guys in the room who would have been thrill to pay a lower six-figure price. I was one of them and I did not have a customer (this doesn't make me smart or prudent for sure, but they don't pay off for 4th place and it was a marvelous piece). Ch. AU in the CDN (progressively less useful as the emission date goes farther back) was, and is, way under 50K.
No false humility here, no quasi-respectful comments. Just hard won, battle-tested quasi-factoids.
Just Ha-Ha-Ha. Hi-ya, newbie, how do you like your internet now? How do you like your hi-res photos now? Sweat equity and/or get a good agent. Some of you are thinking "What a putz?" I have my moments both ways.
Though a coin snob, I will happily share your enjoyment of a beautifully toned non-pop-top Roosie. My EAC friends make fun of my lack of Sheldon but still take the time to explain. Sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't.
They laugh at me and then ask my advice about early federal silver.
In the trade we call this "proprietary knowledge". It, unlike what you can find in the most well-researched auction catalogue, is not free. Find me on the bourse floor at the few shows I still attend. I'll happily give you free advice on a few items. "Small time" coins? You are never small time for the first 10 minutes of our conversation. If we click, and your goals are what I'd consider serious, numismatically and financially, I'll buy you a nice meal and maybe we can schmooze our way into a working relationship. Small-time but passionate? We may still break bread.
TANSTAAFL
9500 posts from now I will ask Roadrunner if I can borrow "Barbarous Relic". I'm not sure "Cantankerous Old F*rt" is allowable.
<< <i> ...That said, if I ran an auction house and were convinced that a would-be consignment coin was obviously over-graded, I would give the consignor a choice. He/she could consign it and have it described as looking over-graded, or not consign it. >>
Or tell him it's a nice group, but some of the quality, even while slabbed, doesn't look like it would bring what some might consider full market price in the current collecting/economic environment. If you sell it unreserved, or with low reserves and commission/buyback rates based on a specified sell-through rate, we will get you a good price for what it is worth today.
Unsaid : " and while we may damn a few with faint praise, we will not call even one coin dreck"
I think that any coin other than an obvious counterfeit is an auctionable one. It's the auctioneer's responsibility to describe the coin as acurately as possible, trying to rely on objectivity over subjectivity, although in the case of superb coins there's nothing wrong with a little "oooh's and ahhh's"
There's a market for everything. You get what you pay for and every transaction is important, so handle them that way. Mistakes are mostly avoidable. When in doubt, don't shout out.
<< <i>.... Sellers KNOW what they are consigning, so it's no news to them .. >>
Jay, you certainly know what you are selling. Very few estate executors, let alone family members, have a clue.
<< <i> ... Doing homework is the responsibility of the buyer and seller. The auction house acts as an agent. >>
NO NO NO ! If YOUR agent was selling the house and told someone about the mold in the basement, you'd sure be pissed. The listing broker works solely for the seller.
Mention my hairlines. You don't have to call them "die polishing". But call it rich ebony-charcoal patina if it's not slabbed as "Genuine - ED"
What about all the Eliasberg coins that have been dipped since the sale and still retain the pedigree? What about the slabbed 64's and above that were graded AU58 by QDB in those sales, the 67's graded 64?
Exceptions always abound.
Cover your *ss. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in Stacks and heard a long-time friend (or two) tell a customer "I don't think it's the kind of coin you'd be happy with" or "the lustre doesn't match the rest of your set". You can get that kind of service if you make a very small effort to cultivate an auction house employee.
BTW, sometimes I was the consignor, and I would wince internally, but I'd never say a word. That numismatist was doing his intended job. A few times they actually knew it was mine, and gave me a look and a shrug. And they knew I was cool with it. That customer will come back, and in the next sale he may like something I've put in there.
So let's hear more about that Perfect World. The one where you don't put on weight no matter how many donuts you eat. The one where they grow on trees.
<< <i>If YOUR agent was selling the house and told someone about the mold in the basement, you'd sure be pissed. >>
Bad example, mold has to be disclosed (at least in Indiana).
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<< <i>If YOUR agent was selling the house and told someone about the mold in the basement, you'd sure be pissed. >>
Bad example, mold has to be disclosed (at least in Indiana). >>
It's a metaphor. Sorry that's all you got from the post. I hope there wasn't something off-putting in my presentation.
*She, Who Shall Not Be Named* is not the only one here capable of delivering a jeremaid. She's been schooling me lately on developing restraint.
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<< <i>If YOUR agent was selling the house and told someone about the mold in the basement, you'd sure be pissed. >>
Bad example, mold has to be disclosed (at least in Indiana). >>
It's a metaphor. Sorry that's all you got from the post. I hope there wasn't something off-putting in my presentation.
Why talk about rocks that fall from the sky? Sometimes ColonelJessup, I don't understand you... but I'm still your #1 fan!
<< <i>Should an auction house comment on clearly overgraded coins?? >>
We would hope they do but the reality is we are very unlikely to see it happen. You don't make money killing sales.
Bob Grellman and Chris McCawley will give EAC grading opinions on copper coins they catalogue, in effect commenting on overgraded coins. The EAC grade may be far off, or in some cases close to the TPG grade, this gives the potential buyers a better indication of the coins true grade and desirability.
Downey, Grellman, and McCawley give knowledgeable and honest opinions of grades in their cataloging of coins. The major auction firms could do this, but they choose not to, and it is best to take their descriptions with a grain of salt.
<< <i> Why talk about rocks that fall from the sky? Sometimes ColonelJessup, I don't understand you... but I'm still your #1 fan!
I don't get the "rocks that fall from the sky" reference, but be reassured. It's the times when you do understand me that should worry you.
And, sorry about your position in my fan club, but DaveE has that position, though sometimes it's not the hit parade, but the hit list.
<< <i>*She, Who Shall Not Be Named* is not the only one here capable of delivering a jeremaid. She's been schooling me lately on developing restraint. >>
This brought a smile (smirk) to my face this morning.
<< <i>"It's the times when you do understand me that should worry you." >>
Indeed.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]