A question of terminology - Error v. Variety

ModCrewman

Our local coin club has begun "stepping up" our program a bit the last couple months, rather than just an hour of show and tell, we've started to include a "presentation" by a club member on a coin related topic. I had volunteered to present at last night's meeting on the topic of "Error Coins". During my preparations I was reading through Alan Herbert's book The Official Price Guide to Mint Errors 7th Edition and noted that he had recommended a different terminology that I thought was helpful.

I've seen numerous discussions (arguments) about whether something is an ERROR or a VARIETY; his recommendation was to use the term "Minting Variety" to describe any variation from a coin struck "as intended" whether that was due to a "variety" or an "error" is really not essential to the discussion of such coins, and the dispute as to terminology could be settled by using his phrasing "Minting Variety".

Your thoughts?

keyman64

In my view, an error by the mint can become a widely accepted variety. These are not mutually exclusive.

PerryHall

<< <i>In my view, an error by the mint can become a widely accepted variety. These are not mutually exclusive. >>



Agree. Some mint errors (1955 DDO cent for example) can also be mint varieties.

SullivanNumismatics

I think that people will always be arguing this point, but in my mind, a variety is a "die" mistake, and an error is "everything else" (planchet errors, striking errors, etc.) A die variety always repeats itself in an identical fashion, but an error usually does not. I say "usually" because a "planchet" is considered an error, but all planchets are essentially identical. The same is true of missing edge lettering dollar coins. The edge was "never struck" in a sense, and is an error, not a variety. On the other hand, a cud, die scratch, abraded die, clashed die, or a die chip is a variety because it was a "mistake" which the mint did not intend to create. They may have knowingly left the die in service after it was damaged (e.g. a badly abraded die), but it is still damage which the mint would rather not have on the die.

A long as the error or variety itself is diagnosed correctly (Ie., it is a double-strike or a triple-strike), that is really the important thing. The problem of putting a "mistake" in the "error" or "variety" classification is really not very important in my opinion, although it garners a lot of debate among numismatists.

Jon

Dog97

Here we go again...
Anything out of the ordinary is an "error" of smoe kind. Use the PDS system to determine which part of the manufacturing process was defective to attribute the error, PDS, just like the mintmark letters on your coins, PDS.
Planchet
Die
Striking
Hope this helps.

cmerlo1

My definitions:

Variety- Refers to something that happens to the DIE. All coins struck by this die will show the variety. This includes doubled dies, repunched dates and mint marks, die cracks and cuds, die gouges and scratches, etc.

Error- Refers to something that happens to the COIN during the manufacturing process. This includes, off center strikes, broadstrikes, brockage, split, cracked, and laminated planchets, double strikes, etc.

I still don't see why this is such a gray area for so many people.

--Christian

ambro51

I can kind of relate this to terms familiar to me in an old job, a trade bindery, where I ran high speed paper folding equipment.


When a sheet came out crooked, wrinkled a bit and folded poorly, that was an error.

when I goofed up and folded 20,000 out of a run of two million, as a #10 three fold instead of in half, as the customer wanted...thats a variety!

kranky

Given that a variety is die-related, and an error is anything else, then I suggest one way to remember the difference is that every error is unique - no two are exactly alike. But there can be many examples of a variety because the same die will have struck any number of coins.

I disagree with Mr. Herbert that it doesn't matter whether something is an error or a variety. It has always mattered. IMHO varieties have always been more popular in the mainstream. Not that errors are unpopular, but because errors are unique, you can't "name" them as distinctively. Varieties lend themselves to being cherrypicked, errors not so much. Some varieties are so popular, they have become basically a required part of a set - like the 1960 Lincoln Large and Small dates.

I don't want to sound like errors are second-class, because they are very cool. I'm only saying that it absolutely matters whether something is an error or a variety. It's not logical to lump both into a single category of "Minting Variety".

ModCrewman

<< <i>Given that a variety is die-related, and an error is anything else, then I suggest one way to remember the difference is that every error is unique - no two are exactly alike. But there can be many examples of a variety because the same die will have struck any number of coins.

I disagree with Mr. Herbert that it doesn't matter whether something is an error or a variety. It has always mattered. IMHO varieties have always been more popular in the mainstream. Not that errors are unpopular, but because errors are unique, you can't "name" them as distinctively. Varieties lend themselves to being cherrypicked, errors not so much. Some varieties are so popular, they have become basically a required part of a set - like the 1960 Lincoln Large and Small dates.

I don't want to sound like errors are second-class, because they are very cool. I'm only saying that it absolutely matters whether something is an error or a variety. It's not logical to lump both into a single category of "Minting Variety". >>

I may have inadvertantly been putting words in his mouth...I think his intent in introducing the terminology was essentially that his book is organized using the PDS system, and he discusses/defines/classifies potential variations in each category including everything from clips, alloying, and incomplete planchets in the Planchet class, to die cracks, doubling, RPM's, abraded dies in the Die class, to double struck, off center, broadstruck, brockages, etc. in the book without being overly concerned about identifying each as an "error" or "variety".

Thanks for the discussion.

cmerlo1

I thought about this after my post, and I think the reason it's confusing to some is mainly the term 'error'. Varieties can be made in error sometimes (example: 1955 DDO), though not all the time (example: 17th & 18th century overdates), and I can see where this might blur the line. Perhaps a better term would be 'Manufacturing Anomaly' to describe things such as off-centers, broadstrikes, etc. Apologies to the mint error experts .

19Lyds

<< <i>My definitions:

Variety- Refers to something that happens to the DIE. All coins struck by this die will show the variety. This includes doubled dies, repunched dates and mint marks, die cracks and cuds, die gouges and scratches, etc.

Error- Refers to something that happens to the COIN during the manufacturing process. This includes, off center strikes, broadstrikes, brockage, split, cracked, and laminated planchets, double strikes, etc.

I still don't see why this is such a gray area for so many people.

--Christian >>

I agree with you Christian except that most folks confuse die "creation" errors as actual minting errors. There is a difference since the die was created in error but the coins produced by that die are not errors but varieties.

It gets even more confusing when "die state" conditional errors occur such as Pegleg IKE's and Bugs Bunny Franklins.


I think I just confused myself!

Dog97

Kranky I know that you know the difference between an "error" and a variety but you must agree that refering to an S catagory as the only true error is a sloppy misuse of numismatic terms. If you don't presently agree, then after you obtain Grumpy Old Collector status and tire of discussing error vs variety ad nauseum you too will become anal about the subject and use the proper terms.



<< <i>I may have inadvertantly been putting words in his mouth...I think his intent in introducing the terminology was essentially that his book is organized using the PDS system, and he discusses/defines/classifies potential variations in each category including everything from clips, alloying, and incomplete planchets in the Planchet class, to die cracks, doubling, RPM's, abraded dies in the Die class, to double struck, off center, broadstruck, brockages, etc. in the book without being overly concerned about identifying each as an "error" or "variety". >>


I didn't click on your link so I didn't realize I was repeating information you already knew. The PDS is not new, I began using it after reading Shane Anderson's "The Complete Lincoln Cent Encyclopedia" where he described it in the 1990's. I didn't want to complicate the topic but he also uses a 4th catagory, the O Catagory, to designate Official Mint Modifications. Any alterations to a coin after it leaves the dies is refered to as "Post Mint Damage" but 09 Matte Proofs were treated after they left the die according to his book. I'm not familiar with 09 Matte Proofs so I don't know what this means, just telling you what the book says.

koynekwest

<< <i>My definitions:

Variety- Refers to something that happens to the DIE. All coins struck by this die will show the variety. This includes doubled dies, repunched dates and mint marks, die cracks and cuds, die gouges and scratches, etc.

Error- Refers to something that happens to the COIN during the manufacturing process. This includes, off center strikes, broadstrikes, brockage, split, cracked, and laminated planchets, double strikes, etc.

I still don't see why this is such a gray area for so many people.

--Christian >>



I agree. I think wider and more consistent use of the term "Die Variety" might help to clarify things.

errormaven

There has never been a consensus on what the two terms mean. Everyone seems to agree that doubled dies, repunched dates, repunched mintmarks, etc. are die varieties. Everyone seems to agree that off-center strikes, brockages, clips, etc. are minting errors. But nobody agrees on the status of cuds, die cracks, die damage, and other forms of die defects/damage/deformation. Some call these die varieties and others call them "die errors".

It's also unclear how one should classify rotated die errors. Fixed ones could be considered die varieties while dynamic ones seem to fall into the error category.

In the end, the two overarching categories of "die variety" and "minting error" don't matter. As long as you understand the nature and origin of each defect, you're fine.

howards

<< <i>My definitions:

Variety- Refers to something that happens to the DIE. All coins struck by this die will show the variety. This includes doubled dies, repunched dates and mint marks, die cracks and cuds, die gouges and scratches, etc.

Error- Refers to something that happens to the COIN during the manufacturing process. This includes, off center strikes, broadstrikes, brockage, split, cracked, and laminated planchets, double strikes, etc.

I still don't see why this is such a gray area for so many people.

--Christian >>



Those are the definitions I like to use. But there's one class of occurrences that still doesn't fit neatly into the above classifications - rotated dies. Something happened to the die (it got installed improperly or wiggled loose), yet it's not always strictly reproducible (especially if the die is loose). I have chosen to call rotated dies a variety, because a) I think they're cool, and b) I don't collect errors so they have to be varieties to fit with the rest of my coins.

Lots of people seem to call the 3-legged buffalo an "error", but in my book it's a die variety. (And, also in my book, not a very interesting die variety despite its popularity.)

JRocco

A variety is a die issue, and repeats itself.
An error is an individual coin issue.

ctf_error_coins

Frankcoins

My thinking:

Errors are unique, like snowflakes.

Varieties, even if caused by an "error," exist in fairly large numbers, and all show the same identifying diagnostics.

Off metal coins, like the 1943 copper cents, would probably fall more under the "error" category

GrumpyEd

I think we got some good answers!

"Minting Variety" is too vague, it could even cover mintmarks or denominations by definition.

It's better to use the existing terms not add more to the mix.

loro1rojo

<< <i>

<< <i>In my view, an error by the mint can become a widely accepted variety. These are not mutually exclusive. >>



Agree. Some mint errors (1955 DDO cent for example) can also be mint varieties. >>



The 1955 DDO cent is not an error. All doubled dies, RPMS, RPDs, and similar die variations fall under the category of mint variety and not under coin error.

coolkarma

Very interesting. I've been giving this terminology some thought lately and have found the comments here very informative. Thank you.

I view any coin produced by the mint that did not precisely match the design approved by the mint, the Congress, and many others, as being an error. The mint didn't do the job as it was instructed. They made a mistake. Within this large group of errors, there are many subgroups of kinds of errors, including die varieties, planchet errors, minting errors, etc. To define the subgroups, you look at when they occurred in the full minting process (e.g., the die production process, the coin minting process) and the circumstances surrounding the mistake (e.g., improper annealing of the dies, mechanical failure of the minting press). This leaves room for a range of types of errors. And of course, people are free to collect which ever they may choose

Enjoy!