Different toning on different types of coins.
keets
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In a this thread Lloyd(bestclser1) shows us a spectacularly toned Liberty Walking Half-Dollar and among the comments is an interesting one by Justacommeman, "Walkers just do not tone like Morgans or Franklins." This caused me to wonder about a few things. Quite often when talking about tone and/or color patterns we tend to focus on the type of storage that's been used and the storage conditions such as heat and humidity. What MJ's comment caused me to ponder is entirely different.
How much does the particular type of design for a coin affect the way it tones and the pattern that might form?? Do you think that the way the devices are on a Walker are affect the way tone might form on that coin type? Would a coin with mostly centralized devices such as a Morgan be more prone to circular/symmetrical tone patterns?? How is the tone pattern affected by the surface of the coin, the way the devices are laid out?? Do I think too much??
Al H.
How much does the particular type of design for a coin affect the way it tones and the pattern that might form?? Do you think that the way the devices are on a Walker are affect the way tone might form on that coin type? Would a coin with mostly centralized devices such as a Morgan be more prone to circular/symmetrical tone patterns?? How is the tone pattern affected by the surface of the coin, the way the devices are laid out?? Do I think too much??
Al H.
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I fully believe that the design of the coin has lots to do with the toning. It may seem
silly but a larger coin with more surface allows the silver to flow when being minted
as is different say with a dime. The pattern of the coin and the devises, fields and the
lettering all come into play on how a coin will turn colors. I even wonder about the silver
content. Does silver have a different chemical make up depending from where it was mined??
We all understand that storage is the largest factor in determing the variations of color
on a silver coin but there has to be so many more and not just a damn Taco Bell napkin.
I always assumed that the surface of Walkers were less susceptible to toning because of the intricate design. I've been trying to put together a short/long set of toned Walkers along the lines of what Llyod posted for about five years now. I still tell you first hand that this has been a challenge. Evan Gale told me it was not possible as some dates/mintmarks just don't come attractively toned with vibrant color. With that being the case it has to be smoething else on these particular dates/marks besides the design that make these hard to come by in color. Storeage methods of these said dates? The type of folders/coin boards? Planchet finishing? I'd love to hear other comments. Anyways, Evan has been proven right so far, but I'm not throwing in the towel on these yet..............JMHO. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
maybe we should post some spectatcular toned Walkers/Franklins/64 Kennedys
or even Lib nickels/buffalos/Jeffersons
and have you noticed the different patterns on proofs vs business strikes on the same series/dates? whats up with that?
show us some of your proof Jeffersons with color you never see on business strikes
The Continental hoard (over 100 bags) dispersed in the mid-80''s by Ed Milas through George Weingart contributed a large number of pieces. When DMPL "S" mints were bringing $50-$75 the dramatically toned coins were bringing as much as $200 in auction.
Even within the Morgan series there are differences in toning patterns and intensity of color. Think of 82-O, 83-O, 84-O and 85-O dates and the lower incidence of toners, at least blasty backlit ones like the $2000 MS66 so likely to be an "S" mint. Much of the difference may well be that the finishs of these dates are more grainy (die rust and lower striking pressure to preserve dies) and the underlying surfaces do not provide the backlighting which accentuates colors. Curiously I've noticed a higher incidence of rich textile textile toning for these dates (increased exposure to variances of temperature and humidity?) but I am wide open to correction by toning aficionados.
Walkers for 1916-1917 (including the branch mints) have a more grainy surface due to intentional or perhaps, sloppiness in preparation of the die finishs (Some help, Roger?) and less reflectivity. Vibrant rich colors are rare and many dipped.
If you ever see a vibrant original 17-S Obverse just buy it. Drab 64's abound.
From 1936 on there seem to be more reflective brilliant surfaces and thus they backlight intense colors.
Others might contribute much about Barber coinage and the incidence of gorgeously toned SLQ's and Mercs.
CJ
-Proofs will tone differently than mint state pieces of the same design, as the fields are much smoother, rather than more textured with greater metal flow. The metal flow of the mint state pieces provides much more exposed surface area with which toning agents can react.
-Many peace dollars were stored in mint mags, just as Morgans were (granted, for 40 fewer years, and perhaps in different climates--not New Orleans). However, the rinsing of the planchets differed between the two coins, and that is heavily theorized as why Morgans tone so much more commonly than peace dollars. ItStore makes sense that if the surface of the coin is more heavily stripped of any skin (thus fresher and newly exposed) it will be more susceptible to toning, even if in the same environment as a coin that doesn't tone much, if at all.
-Storage location is huge. The most spectacularly toned Franklin halves came out of mint sets, and even of the many years they were produced, some (1958 and then 1957) are far more impressive than any other year. While the packaging was generally the same, the different years saw different colored tissue paper, which had different sulfur levels, and thus changed the toning. Since Walkers, which I believe were produced relatively similar to the Franklins (I've never heard about differences in how they were rinsed, etc.) didn't benefit from this type of mint set storage, you won't find them with the same colors as a mint set toned Franklin. Heck, you won't find a 1950 Franklin with the mint set toning of a 1958-D, and on some coins, the toning is so tell-tale you can figure out the date just from the colors.
Jeremy
My thoughts have been about the coins themselves though.
For instance. Have you ever taken two ASE's, straight from a mint roll, and just laid them out somewhere to see what would happen?
I have. The interesting part to me is that sometimes one will tone heavily and the other won't tone at all.
I realize the composition of these is different from the classic coins being discussed here.
I have to wonder though if the same thing was true even then.
<< <i>Interesting thread. I have been pondering a similar question for a few days.
My thoughts have been about the coins themselves though.
For instance. Have you ever taken two ASE's, straight from a mint roll, and just laid them out somewhere to see what would happen?
I have. The interesting part to me is that sometimes one will tone heavily and the other won't tone at all.
I realize the composition of these is different from the classic coins being discussed here.
I have to wonder though if the same thing was true even then. >>
On this case - I attribute this to different amounts of oil on the surface. Oil will block/slow the exposure of the coins surface to the toning agent ( the atmosphere in this case). An interesting experiment would be to pretreat some of the coins with acetone and/or dip beforehand. I would predict that pretreated coins would tone more and more reliably than untreated "straight from the mint" coins.
I agree on proof vs. the various finished business strikes - the finish is a key factor, perhaps the key factor.
Link
The little people find the surfaces of the different coins types to have different levels of slipperiness, so that causes them to skid around while they are applying pixie dust, which is what causes different coin types to tone differently.
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>It's the little people that come out at night with their pixie dust that causes the color differentiation. Some pixies live near the ocean so they produce mainly blue toning. Some pixies live in a jungle so they produce mainly green toning. Some pixies live in Colorado so they produce mainly red toning. Some pixies live in the deserts so they produce mainly yellow and gold toning. For some coins the little people come together and throw a party and all drop dust on the coin. If a lot of them have already passed out on top of the coin, so that they are stopping the pixie dust from affecting that section of the coin, that will produce different patterns like textile toning.
The little people find the surfaces of the different coins types to have different levels of slipperiness, so that causes them to skid around while they are applying pixie dust, which is what causes different coin types to tone differently. >>
How do I go about throwing a pixie party at my house?
<< <i>It's the little people that come out at night with their pixie dust that causes the color differentiation. Some pixies live near the ocean so they produce mainly blue toning. Some pixies live in a jungle so they produce mainly green toning. Some pixies live in Colorado so they produce mainly red toning. Some pixies live in the deserts so they produce mainly yellow and gold toning. For some coins the little people come together and throw a party and all drop dust on the coin. If a lot of them have already passed out on top of the coin, so that they are stopping the pixie dust from affecting that section of the coin, that will produce different patterns like textile toning.
The little people find the surfaces of the different coins types to have different levels of slipperiness, so that causes them to skid around while they are applying pixie dust, which is what causes different coin types to tone differently. >>
I believe "Planchet Finishing" (as MJ mentioned earlier) or preparation has the most effect on the final out come of toning then the storage method follows...That seems the most logical as to why certain types, dates/mint marks simply aren`t found toned nicely...IMO
AB
if i understand what he's saying then i think we sort of have the same line of thinking. the design influences how metal flows which causes the different luster he talks about.
<< <i>It's the little people that come out at night with their pixie dust that causes the color differentiation. Some pixies live near the ocean so they produce mainly blue toning. Some pixies live in a jungle so they produce mainly green toning. Some pixies live in Colorado so they produce mainly red toning. Some pixies live in the deserts so they produce mainly yellow and gold toning. For some coins the little people come together and throw a party and all drop dust on the coin. If a lot of them have already passed out on top of the coin, so that they are stopping the pixie dust from affecting that section of the coin, that will produce different patterns like textile toning.
The little people find the surfaces of the different coins types to have different levels of slipperiness, so that causes them to skid around while they are applying pixie dust, which is what causes different coin types to tone differently. >>
....best explanation your gonna get
-The design can have an effect if the surfaces are textured in the way the coin is made. For example, coins with orange-peel surfaces will have more exposed surface area than those with just die flow for lustre, which both have much more textured fields than proof (or even prooflike) mirrors.
-The design elements may not affect the broad patterns, but they can affect how many colors are present from a similar source. For instance, Franklin halves are rather low and even in relief, and many can be found with more monotone shades (admittedly, from some sources, they can still take a spectacular array of colors). For coins like Morgan dollars, you can see a mix of colors in the details of the hair and LIBERTY (and the peripheral devices) where distances/depth from a toning source vary dramatically over very small distances. If a peace dollar were able to take colors in the same way, you wouldn't see that intricate changes as the design is smoother.
<< <i>In a this thread Lloyd(bestclser1) shows us a spectacularly toned Liberty Walking Half-Dollar and among the comments is an interesting one by Justacommeman, "Walkers just do not tone like Morgans or Franklins." This caused me to wonder about a few things. Quite often when talking about tone and/or color patterns we tend to focus on the type of storage that's been used and the storage conditions such as heat and humidity. What MJ's comment caused me to ponder is entirely different.
How much does the particular type of design for a coin affect the way it tones and the pattern that might form?? Do you think that the way the devices are on a Walker are affect the way tone might form on that coin type? Would a coin with mostly centralized devices such as a Morgan be more prone to circular/symmetrical tone patterns?? How is the tone pattern affected by the surface of the coin, the way the devices are laid out?? Do I think too much??
Al H. >>
Not at all. It's a point I don't think I've heard considered much, and Regulated should have brought it up. Metal flow and thus texture might vary based on the irregularity of the devices and perhaps the design's requirement for depth of strike and how this affects that flow on the micro-surface level.
Hopefully I've misstated the phenomenon in such a way that the many competent scientists and materials engineers about this forum, after they have done laughing, can elucidate if they think it might illuminate
I think that if you took the toning off of a nice texas commem, as an example, and transferred it to an Iowa (or a San Diego), it would not look out of place. However, that same toning would look out of place on a Long Island, or a Sequi Half, which have less busy designs. The oppostire would also be true.
Of course, I think the agents used by the mint to rinse planchets make a difference too. (at least I suspect that as the factor). Take a series like proof Barber dimes. Certain dates tone beautifully (1895, 1902 as examples), while others do not (say, 1915). I think that there are a lot of factors at work.
merse