How do you spell woodshed in the state of Michigan ?
edmundfitzgerald
Posts: 4,306 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
There's an S, and an E, but you have to add a C.
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I disagree
While just about everyone saw the mismatch between Alabama and MSU, don't short change the Spartans effort this year and the frustration that Alabama did not get a reasonable Bowl bid at the end of the season...
As for the Big 2 and 8 Dwarfs comments- tell that to the Nebraska team that got beat by Wisconsin in 1974
Tell that to the Missouri team that got beat by Illinois 31-6 after trashing USC
And I could go on-
The Big Ten is not over rated today- and they were not over rated 35 years ago.
I suspect if Duffy Daugherty and Biggie Munn were living today they would likely agree
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>There's an S, and an E, but you have to add a C. >>
aren't you the guy that refuses to admit which team is your favorite?
<< <i>
<< <i>There's an S, and an E, but you have to add a C. >>
aren't you the guy that refuses to admit which team is your favorite? >>
Woodsched will now be taught in all elementary schools in that great state.
<< <i>As for the Big 2 and 8 Dwarfs comments- tell that to the Nebraska team that got beat by Wisconsin in 1974 >>
That's your arguement? A game 37 years ago? Really? Wow! Wasn't aware that the Big 10 sucked for that long.
So I need some of the better educated people here to explain to me why Michigan State had fourth and goal today
and called out the punt team
<< <i>It's widely accepted that Big 10 schools are better academic institutions then SEC colleges.
So I need some of the better educated people here to explain to me why Michigan State had fourth and goal today
and called out the punt team
You really don't know the answer to that question, or are you just being stupid?
sec was 0-3 before today, but certainly made up for it. Alabama looked unbeatable.
There are many others
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Obviously we can find cases of Big 10 teams boat-racing some other squad in a bowl game. If you're conference plays in 216 bowl games there's going to be some of that. Year in and year out, however, the Big 10 gets far too much credit for it's football programs. It's a middle-of-the-pack football conference (at best), and it's teams are generally overrated by pundits. The bowl W/L attests to as much.
<< <i>The Big 10 has the worst W/L record in bowl games of any major conference at .470. It's worse than the Pac-10, worse than the Big 12 (8), worse than the ACC, and even worse than the Big East. And that's before this year. Now, bowl W/L is not, I'm sure, perfectly correlated to conference strength, but it's probably one heck of a lot closer than any other widely available metric. It's certainly going to be better than something like 'number of teams ranked in post-season AP Top 25', or something like that.
Obviously we can find cases of Big 10 teams boat-racing some other squad in a bowl game. If you're conference plays in 216 bowl games there's going to be some of that. Year in and year out, however, the Big 10 gets far too much credit for it's football programs. It's a middle-of-the-pack football conference (at best), and it's teams are generally overrated by pundits. The bowl W/L attests to as much. >>
How many of those bowl games were played in the midwest? Often times the big ten plays on the other teams home field being all bowl games are played in sec country and warm weather states. I would like to see auburn play a bowl game at wisconsin in january.
<< <i>
<< <i>The Big 10 has the worst W/L record in bowl games of any major conference at .470. It's worse than the Pac-10, worse than the Big 12 (8), worse than the ACC, and even worse than the Big East. And that's before this year. Now, bowl W/L is not, I'm sure, perfectly correlated to conference strength, but it's probably one heck of a lot closer than any other widely available metric. It's certainly going to be better than something like 'number of teams ranked in post-season AP Top 25', or something like that.
Obviously we can find cases of Big 10 teams boat-racing some other squad in a bowl game. If you're conference plays in 216 bowl games there's going to be some of that. Year in and year out, however, the Big 10 gets far too much credit for it's football programs. It's a middle-of-the-pack football conference (at best), and it's teams are generally overrated by pundits. The bowl W/L attests to as much. >>
How many of those bowl games were played in the midwest? Often times the big ten plays on the other teams home field being all bowl games are played in sec country and warm weather states. I would like to see auburn play a bowl game at wisconsin in january. >>
That's a fair point. However, if this 'quasi home field advantage' actually existed we wouldn't expect the Big East to have the 2nd highest bowl game W/L % of any major conference, since the Big East/Big 10 play in roughly the same climate.
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Ralph
<< <i>True. TCU had a HUGE home field advantage against Wisconsin in CALIFORNIA. Alabama beat MSU in Orlando. That would be Orlando, FLORIDA... that would be the same Orlando that would be less than two hours from Gainesville, Florida. Do you really think the Crimson Tide has a home field advantage in Orlando, where most people HATE the Tide? By the way, Appalachian State isn't part of the SEC, but they have already proven that Southern teams can win in Big Ten stadiums. >>
Fine, although it's silly to pick isolated incidents and insist they're part of a larger trend.
Sincerely,
The ACC
But to the point of the Big 10 being overrated, I tend to agree, though not really for the reasons espoused here.
Let's not forget one other point though - every year, SEC teams oversign recruits way beyond the 25 player limit, while Big Ten teams do not. For a good primer on the subject, go visit www.oversigning.com. Mark Ingram? 29th player in Alabama's class. Arkansas, who plays Ohio State on Tuesday, has signed 110 players the last 4 years, with the limit supposedly being 85 players. Then they stuff them in junior colleges, or cut them, or give them a medical scholarship which keeps them around but they can't play (thus not counting towards the roster limit). No other conference in the nation oversigns like the SEC, which keeps their football factories churning. Only UGA, I think, does not oversign in the conference (not counting Vandy).
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Ralph
Ken
<< <i>Let's not forget one other point though - every year, SEC teams oversign recruits way beyond the 25 player limit, while Big Ten teams do not. For a good primer on the subject, go visit www.oversigning.com. Mark Ingram? 29th player in Alabama's class. Arkansas, who plays Ohio State on Tuesday, has signed 110 players the last 4 years, with the limit supposedly being 85 players. Then they stuff them in junior colleges, or cut them, or give them a medical scholarship which keeps them around but they can't play (thus not counting towards the roster limit). No other conference in the nation oversigns like the SEC, which keeps their football factories churning. Only UGA, I think, does not oversign in the conference (not counting Vandy). >>
This was a subject on ESPN Outside the Lines a couple weeks ago. Pretty enlightening. One school (Houston Nutt?) offered 127 kids and even joked about it. Big10 has rules against it. Not too surprising, really.
Now let's look at basketball. The only real traditional basketball power in the SEC is Kentucky. Yes, Florida had a nice stretch, but that is more recent and has been hit or miss. And notice, Kentucky is one of the weakest football schools in the SEC. It is the one state where basketball is king over football. I live in North Carolina. Football gets talked about here, but basketball is MUCH more important. The Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area has produced 10 NCAA basketball championships since 1974. In that same time, the entire ACC has had 3 NCAA football championships, and 2 of those were from the import of Florida State (from the Deep South). Notice how many Blue Chip basketball players come from areas that aren't SEC dominated?
The SEC isn't better than the Big Ten. The Big Ten isn't better than the SEC. But, in football, the SEC is better than the Big Ten or anyone else. It is likely to stay that way. Just as, the ACC is better in basketball than the SEC, and with rare exceptions (maybe this year) it will continue that way. The Big Ten is better than the SEC in hockey, though. I can't see that changing.
Got any stats to back that up? SEC schools may pull a kid or 2 from Ohio just as Ohio State pulls a kid or 2 from Florida each year. We can get the rosters out and compare.
And to assert that oversigning has no impact is crazy. You get 20 extra kids to evaluate each year, that has no tangible benefit? Ask Nebraska what happened to their program when they couldn't stock their roster with partial qualifiers after joining the Big 12. Slow downhill slide.
I would agree it's not the only thing driving SEC power, though. Population migration to the south, SEC schools paying exorbitant salaries to assistant coaches, and $$$ all contribute. And the Big 10 overrates itself and is more interested in coming up with stupid names for its divisions than keeping up competitively. Also, head coaching in the SEC is way deeper and better than in the Big 10, who has Tressel & Ferentz and a bag of donuts.
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<< <i>"The percentage of kids from the South going to play in the North is much smaller than the opposite."
Got any stats to back that up? SEC schools may pull a kid or 2 from Ohio just as Ohio State pulls a kid or 2 from Florida each year. We can get the rosters out and compare.
And to assert that oversigning has no impact is crazy. You get 20 extra kids to evaluate each year, that has no tangible benefit? Ask Nebraska what happened to their program when they couldn't stock their roster with partial qualifiers after joining the Big 12. Slow downhill slide.
I would agree it's not the only thing driving SEC power, though. Population migration to the south, SEC schools paying exorbitant salaries to assistant coaches, and $$$ all contribute. And the Big 10 overrates itself and is more interested in coming up with stupid names for its divisions than keeping up competitively. Also, head coaching in the SEC is way deeper and better than in the Big 10, who has Tressel & Ferentz and a bag of donuts. >>
Nice to see you hold JoePa in such high regard! Seriously, the coaching in the Big 10..er.. 12.. er.. 10 is fairly lukewarm. Although I do think D'Antonio and Bielma are fine helmsmen of their respective programs.
Edit to add: I was curious so I looked at OSU's and FLA's varsity rosters for this year. Looks like there are 9 Floridians on OSUs roster, and no Ohioans on FLA's roster.
To be honest, I think the fact that there are 9 Floridians on Ohio States roster and 0 kids from Ohio on Florida's roster is more indicative of the talent coming out of Florida vs. other states.
Look at some of the top teams for each given region.....Oklahoma has tons of kids from Texas, Oregon is mostly made up of kids from California, and Auburn and other SEC schools are primarily Florida/Georgia/Alabama kids....if you want to compete you recruit these areas, not Massachusetts.
Edit: I know Ohio and Pennsylvania, as well as other states, put out some really great players every year, and I wasn't trying to discredit them, I'm just saying that the talent down here is DEEP. If you're a school like the University of Florida or Florida State, why would you go elsewhere to recruit?
Also, there's a reason programs like my school USF, UCF, and even crappy schools like Florida INTERNATIONAL, and Florida ATLANTIC, have been able to be fairly successful very quickly with limited resources because we primarily recruit Florida kids. I haven't seen Ohio or Kent St do to much damage on a national stage lately. Not much from Eastern Michigan either. My school has had a football program as a whole since 1997, and Division 1 football since 2002 and has been to 6 straight bowl games now (I know it doesn't mean much anymore, but still). We've beaten Auburn, Florida St, NC St, Miami, Clemson and some other notable teams over the years. We'd probably still be 1-AA if we were in Iowa.
I think you are taking his statement a little personally. I didn't take it like that. Splitting hairs maybe but I did not take it as a personal attack on you.
I actually am enjoying this thread as it has had potentially negative statements toward the SEC without a couple of unnamed people jumping in with their usual blabber.
You replied with facts of why the south has more football players and that makes sense. Again, I think this has turned into a good thread.
Boo - good points about Dantonio and Bielema. I'd put them up there as well. Joe Pa too, when he used to be lucid.
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<< <i>I think it's a good thread too. I didn't mean a thing personally towards Powdered, there are many reasons why the SEC is better right now competitively, I just didn't think mining players out of the North was one of them. And I disagree that oversigning is not an advantage.
Boo - good points about Dantonio and Bielema. I'd put them up there as well. Joe Pa too, when he used to be lucid. >>
I agree about the oversigning, but I think some are underestimating the "player mining" aspect. You can't just do a comparison of Ohio vs Florida, for example, since that excludes football hotbeds like PA. I may do it later today, but I'll bet the scales are tilted a fair amount in favor of more blue-chip northern players heading south than north.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's a good thread too. I didn't mean a thing personally towards Powdered, there are many reasons why the SEC is better right now competitively, I just didn't think mining players out of the North was one of them. And I disagree that oversigning is not an advantage.
Boo - good points about Dantonio and Bielema. I'd put them up there as well. Joe Pa too, when he used to be lucid. >>
I agree about the oversigning, but I think some are underestimating the "player mining" aspect. You can't just do a comparison of Ohio vs Florida, for example, since that excludes football hotbeds like PA. I may do it later today, but I'll bet the scales are tilted a fair amount in favor of more blue-chip northern players heading south than north. >>
I also agree with oversigning. Its clearly an advantage.
I also believe that its getting harder to recruit top players to play in cold weather states, like ohio, michigan, indiana, etc. This topic has been discussed about often on espn. Michigan and Notre dame always used to get a high number of top players year in and year out. Not the case these days.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's a good thread too. I didn't mean a thing personally towards Powdered, there are many reasons why the SEC is better right now competitively, I just didn't think mining players out of the North was one of them. And I disagree that oversigning is not an advantage.
Boo - good points about Dantonio and Bielema. I'd put them up there as well. Joe Pa too, when he used to be lucid. >>
I agree about the oversigning, but I think some are underestimating the "player mining" aspect. You can't just do a comparison of Ohio vs Florida, for example, since that excludes football hotbeds like PA. I may do it later today, but I'll bet the scales are tilted a fair amount in favor of more blue-chip northern players heading south than north. >>
I also agree with oversigning. Its clearly an advantage.
I also believe that its getting harder to recruit top players to play in cold weather states, like ohio, michigan, indiana, etc. This topic has been discussed about often on espn. Michigan and Notre dame always used to get a high number of top players year in and year out. Not the case these days. >>
My understanding is that much of that has to do with higher academic standards at those two schools. Now that may or not be true, but that's the prevailing wisdom.
<< <i>
My understanding is that much of that has to do with higher academic standards at those two schools. Now that may or not be true, but that's the prevailing wisdom. >>
That's my understanding too. I can't give statistics, but I'm sure it rolls like this......
1. Ivy League
2. Notre Dame or Michigan or Vanderbilt
3. The rest of the SEC without Vandy
Having said that, Michigan State wanted Mark Ingram (Alabama) real bad because his dad went their, and there are many
SEC schools where you can get a quality, and I mean quality(but not Stanford like) education.
I am an old guy but when I graduated from high school, 25 or so years ago, Michigan had a better academic rep than ND. I do not know about now.
<< <i>Michigan is on the same academic level as Notre Dame? By Michigan I think you meant Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Boston U, etc in addition to schools like Vandy. >>
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but if you're suggesting Michigan isn't on the same academic level as ND then you'll have to guess again.
Here's the recent US News rankings. Michigan is 15th. Keep in mind these are world rankings. link.
so you're using one largely flawed WORLD ranking, or was that just the one you hand picked to make this argument look better? One that has Dartmouth ranked at #90 because the "International Faculty Score" of 11 schoolboy tripped them below Purdue.
Reminds me of when I recently told my mom (a UCLA alum) that USC was now ranked higher than UCLA in US News. She told me it was wrong. My mom graduated 50 years ago and still bases her UCLA superiority on what the differences were back then. Means nothing today but she will go to her grave "knowing" that UCLA is a far superior academic institution than SC.
you should know how to spell woodshed.
<< <i>You guys are basically splitting hairs, but the fact remains, that if you graduate from Michigan or Michigan State, that
you should know how to spell woodshed. >>
I know I shouldn't encourage you, but that one was actually pretty good
<< <i>in most cases no....especially in the case of the USN & WR rankings where the criteria involves the quality of dorm food and the student "population happiness". You can probably make some distinctions between the top 50 schools from those in the 100s, but I think you'd have to match private schools with other private schools that offer similar areas of study, and the same with public schools. Probably much easier to rank large public state schools against one another given that they offer the same general slate of fields. That said, it's still subjective on various factors. For example, since I'm assuming you're from or live in Michigan. If you were entering college as an English, Lit, music, or theatre major, and you had your choice of any of the schools in Michigan - public or private, were awarded a full scholarship (or Mike Illich offered to foot your academic freight), are you going to Ann Arbor, or are you going to hang out in Holland at tiny Hope College with my cousin, Sufjan Stevens, and the other aspiring writer and artsy types? Unless you really dislike Dutch-American culture, or you really want to be at a school with competitive D1 sports programs, probably Hope...and they're ranked behind UofM in almost all of these rankings aside from those individual areas of study. >>
Odd that you mention Hope, because I was an aspiring Lit major coming out of high school in 1990 and was 'this close' to attending Hope. I'd been accepted, taken the campus tour-- even put down the deposit on the dorm room.
So, in that case you're 100% correct. I would rather go to Hope. In fact, I think virtually ANY undergrad who isn't looking to major in engineering would probably get a better education at Hope than UM. Or any small, private liberal arts college, for that matter.
<< <i>... or be a drop out like Bill Gates and rule the world!
>>
Bill Gates has a degree from Harvard.
<< <i>
<< <i>... or be a drop out like Bill Gates and rule the world!
>>
Bill Gates has a degree from Harvard. >>
Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard to start Microsoft. He went back later on.