Chinese Counterfeit Question
erwindoc
Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you buy these intentionally or find out the hard way and they dont have the copy stamp are they still legal to own?
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dispose (other than destroy) of it. Numismatists could very well have reasons to own
fakes and to use them for educational purposes, etc.
bob
<< <i>If you buy these intentionally or find out the hard way and they dont have the copy stamp are they still legal to own? >>
No , its a federal offence as far as i know.Probably why you don't see many posted to prove the quality of workmanship.
Edited to add , as i say..as far as i know , Bob could be correct.Maybe its just illegal to spend or sell them.
"Though the legalities regarding ownership of bogus coins aren't completely clear, there's nothing in the statutory or case law in the U.S. that indicates simple possession is illegal. Two areas of U.S. statuatory law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of ancient coins.
Similarly, no court in the U.S. has ever ruled that possession of counterfeits of collectable coins is illegal. What's more, at least two circuit courts have ruled that possession of counterfeit coins without intent to defraud doesn't violate the section of the U.S. Code on counterfeiting U.S. coins (United States v. Cardillo, 708 F.2d 29 [1983], and United States v. Ratner, 464 F.2d 169 [1972]), according to collector and lawyer Michael Benveniste.
"The statutes do not criminalize mere possession of counterfeit money," concluded Armen R. Vartian in a November 5, 2001, Coin World column titled "Owning Counterfeits." As a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, Vartian is the most visible numismatic legal expert in the U.S.
All this hasn't stopped at least one nonlawyer from amateurishly combining unrelated statutes and court cases and repeatedly pronouncing online that possessing counterfeit coins is illegal and then offering the loopy warning that if you drive with one, to a coin club meeting or from a coin show, for instance, your car may be seized by the government. There's no indication, according to reports and the literature, that anyone has been arrested, fined, jailed, or had their transporation seized for possession of a counterfeit coin without intent to defraud in the U.S. since the Secret Service, an agency of the U.S. Treasury, began policing against counterfeits in 1865, and there's no indication that the Secret Service plans to reverse this policy of a century and a half.
Others have also weighed in with their views about the legalities, online and in print. But ultimately it's all just opinion, with the only opinion ultimately mattering being that of a judge, judges, or jury in a relevant case.
What is clear is that it's illegal to possess counterfeit coins if your intention is to cheat others with them by selling them as genuine or to refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's entitled to under the law. The Secret Service, in fact, has confiscated high-visibility collections of counterfeits of U.S. coins, and though this hasn't happened in some 30 years, the possibility does exist that it could happen again. This gray area is the reason that Vartian and others recommend that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so quietly.
Hundreds if not thousands of collectors, dealers, and auction houses do just that, keeping counterfeits of collectable coins, minted from ancient times to the present, on hand for help in counterfeit detection and as examples of the black art of forgery. What's more, counterfeit coins are bought and sold openly as counterfeits, described for what they are, every day on eBay as well as at major national coin shows and by the most respected U.S. and European numismatic auction firms.
The ownership of counterfeits of collectable coins is a non-issue today in the eyes of the authorities, who understandably devote their resources primarily toward going after those who make or pass fake bills, which can threaten the country's money supply and ultimately its fiscal health. The Secret Service made 29,000 arrests for counterfeiting U.S. currency in the five-year period between 2003 and 2008, according to a Forbes Magazine article, while making no reported arrests for owning counterfeits of collectible coins."
As far as I can tell, the statutes relating to counterfeit coins all require either a) the act of producing the counterfeit or counterfeit dies, or b) an act taken with the intent to defraud. At the very least, unknowingly purchasing a counterfeit from someone representing the coin as authentic should not be grounds for criminal liability for the purchaser.