my hunch is that the MS70 is in fact reacting with the alloy and not removing haze or whatever else is contended to be blocking the color we can't see. my "experiment" would be to remove the surface contaminants/haze or whetever so that we had little doubt that, when applied, the MS70 was reacting with the alloy.
I post this tentatively, but there could be other 'as of yet' unconsidered evidence in favor of the "MS70 reveals toning underneath" argument.
Several years ago I had a mint set 57 lincoln from a double mint set. It had a very distinct dusty brown lusterless appearance to one side. But underneath I could see bright green toning. I selected an extremely soft wide unabrasive paint brush to lightly stroke away what I felt was a dusty corrosion layer and it quickly revealed a stronger emerald green and highly lustrous surface. In this instance, lightly teasing that dusty surface material away seemed to improve the color and lustre.
Now that was feeling pretty big about the thing, I took the same brush to a 55S lincoln from a mint set showing what appeared to be the same surfaces with multi-colors underneath. Instead of this coin improving, this time it actually killed the luster and nearly eliminated ALL color that had appeared to be there before. I have stopped doing this entirely because of the unpredictable nature of touching the surface with a brush, but a half dozen experiments this revealed a variety of results leading me to believe there were truly different types of toning layers - probably both physically and chemically - on the surface of these copper coins. I wonder if MS70 on that 57 coinn would have revealed the same improvement?? I will never know because you can't turn back time but more pointedly, I dont' like what MS70 doeas to the appearance on copper (blue or not) and so I will never touch the stuff.
Does anyone care to take a stab at what happened on that 57'?
If a rinse in acetone by itself doesn't work, I've found acetone and an ultrasonic cleaner often gets thick and/or chunky persistent surface residue off without a chemical reaction, but as EE has mentioned something about an acetone effect I'd want to see an example before recommending this technique for copper. Works great on a lot of nickel, silver and gold, though the "hairline surprise" is sometimes a byproduct of the less obscured surfaces.
Drip by drip application of acetone, or even sometines just alcohol, onto one side of the coin in an amount that doesn't overflow the rims often "emulsifies" whatever's there without taking anything off. This won't work on Buffs.
It's just been re-arranged and some masking of the surfaces still remains. From experience I can related that Q-tips are potentially dangerous.
Less is more. Slow is better. Which also means that you should dilute your E-Z-est.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
For sure they 1817 Been dipped and ms70'ed. Still a nice coin but in no way original. Sometimes I think coins were so much simpler before I found out about such things.
<< <i>Where are all the Cool Blue IHC's?.............................it begins with M and ends with 70.
a little forum research will provide you with the names of members involved in one of the West Coast-MS70-buy/crack/enhance/reslab-profit schemes of the early part of this Century. no doubt some IHC's obtain the color you're interested in legitimately, but many of them are blatant AT, yet collectors are willing to pay premiums for them and dealers are willing to vouche for their authenticity and promote them. >>
<< <i>it's hard to comment on the coin without seeing it, all i know is that green on copper is generally not a good thing, indicative of corrosion. >>
??? Couldn't tell if you were responding to my post Keets, but IMO emerald toning is the ultimate marker of original colorful lincoln toning.
<< <i>i wonder why a Silver or Gold coin wiped with MS70 never seems to have color revealed which was lying under the haze?? could it be that MS70 reacts with copper/bronze to produce the color and doesn't react in a similar fashion with Silver or Gold containing such a low percentage of copper?? >>
You are correct.
I have to agree with MikeinFL. He is spot on. The Large Cent has the look of MS70 application on the reverse. In addition, Mike's analysis appears to be well thought out and accurate.
Another way to get IHC to turn blue is by placing them on a heated element, such as a stovetop or heat source. However, the coin will turn quickly, so the time factor is critical, and there's no turning back.
You know there are different topics being thrown around and answers to one doesn't fit the other topics.
There is enough historical evidence as well as practical evidence that long term storage in mint tissue created a blue tone over deep chocolate brown patina on many coins - some existed in huge hoards in the 1930's. These are found mostly on certain dates of Proof Indian and Lincoln cents 1878 -1915. Also early copper proofs and patterns. This is fact, provable just from looking at old collections.
Then there is these experiments that you are trying on any old copper coin. The testing that you are doing is either too random or too specific. A real proof would be to make a repeatable test that turns a copper coin blue every time. I think the Large cent shows what typically a MS-70 dunked coin looks like - stripped of its originally, not cleaned per se, but not looking like a 200 year-old coin. Not really blue, more like slate color. If you try it on a coin that long ago was stored in a toning environment, then it might be blue, maybe not.
My point is that you have to take into account the storage of the coin long before we were here to make a judgement on whether the toning is caused by the MS-70 or is being uncovered. It is not a one answer fits all.
I think most MS coins which are blue are not original. The toning is the acetone effect of residue left on a thin-film on the surface. If you add a coating of "blue ribbon" to these coins, it cancels the thin-film interference and covers the toning.
Yes, that 1894 S1 is a beauty. The toning was caused by long term storage in a cardboard album. Perhaps it was dipped back in the 1960's, which accelerated the ability to later tone in the album. As you can see, I photo sealed it because I value it as a MS64BN (or even better).
<< <i>i will ask again, why is there no evidence of MS70 reacting in such a manner with Silver and Gold coins?? >>
I will ask the PH.D chemist I keep on retainer (hehehe), but my guess is a 2nd year chemistry major could answer this as easily.
Bill Fivaz, one of the very major contributors to numismatic knowledge over the last 20+ years, probably has informational resources way beyond mine. Reason? Incessant curiosity. If I catch up to him at FUN hopefully I'll remember to ask him. I've known him for 30 years and if you were to ask him yourself you'd get the same answer.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
It is interesting that we see colorfully toned Lincolns removed from mint sets displayed here in virtually every “copper for weekend” thread so we know that cardboard can impart rainbow hues to MS copper including blues and greens but no one screams MS70. We know that the docs have spent years working to turn BN copper RB and RB copper RD. But does it then follow that all RB and RD copper must have been worked? The docs AT silver and nickel coins but does it follow that all toned silver and nickel is AT?
I asked the following question in a thread about two months back and got no positive responses, so I’ll ask again. Does anyone here have first hand experience with MS IHCs that have spent a long time in Waite Raymond pages? What about proofs?
If this coin was MS70'd it was done prior to 1986 and has not changed since then. I have the 1986 color ANACS photo certificate that shows this exact toning pattern.
Here are some Todd images of the coin.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
why is there no evidence of MS70 reacting in such a manner with Silver and Gold coins??
I think this is the whole key to the discussion - Is MS70 reacting with the copper? Or is it uncovering existing toning and/or augmenting it with thin-film interference.
A few things about toned copper - The brown tone commonly seen on copper coins is a very sturdy and protective layer. It resists grime and carbon spotting from fingerprints and spittle. Acid-based cleaners like Jewel-luster will destroy this shell and leave the coin open to spotting and eventual retoning, although never quite like the original tone. I don't think this brown copper layer is reactive at all. It is protective and stable. There are beautiful brown copper ancient coins that have a wonderful think brown patina. Blue-toned Proofs are always found with a thick underlying brown patina (at least the ones I have been talking about) Not all dates of Indian cents are found Blue-toned either. Why is that? Pre-1878 dates are much harder to find because they were not included in the hoards that came out in the 1930's. 1864 and 1865 seem to be found occasionally. Maybe they were held back in smaller hoards too. Copper patterns are often found with beautiful toning over hard brown patinas. I would guess that they came from the "Woodin deal" in 1909, again after 50 years in mint tissue.
Toned copper with a more red-gold underlying color are different. Their are numerous ways they got their toning. Maybe they were dipped in cyanide in the 1940's and retoned over time in cardboard holders. Maybe they are recent creations. You can't make a blanket statement about any of them.
<< <i>i will ask again, why is there no evidence of MS70 reacting in such a manner with Silver and Gold coins?? >>
Copper is different than silver and gold. Thus it reacts differently. This is part of the reason why silver and gold are known as noble metals. They are generally unreactive to most chemicals (gold especially).
ColonelJessup-----i'm pretty sure i know the answer to my own question.
CalGold-----there's quite a bit of difference between the color patterns and the intensity of the color between Mint Set Lincoln Cents and the coins being discussed, that's probably why noone mentions anything when the former are pictured.
The toning was caused by long term storage in a cardboard album. Perhaps it was dipped back in the 1960's, which accelerated the ability to later tone in the album. EagleEye-----i'm sort of surprised by your admission that you suspect the 1894/94 was dipped/cleaned since that is exactly what this thread has been targetting, the fact that these vibrantly toned IHC's didn't acquire the tone naturally. i stated as much in my PM to you, that it was fairly common for coins to be cleaned by collectors during the latter part of the 19th Century right on up to the present day. that may have been a light wipe, a rinse of some type or whatever was common practice at the particular time. the term "cleaned and retoned" is one we are all familiar with and from MyLoftyPerch it is one that applies to many of these coins, most that have been pictured throughout the thread.
as i have said several times, it is certain that some IHC's obtain tone such as this naturally but i think it's prudent to warn collectors that there are many out there which are blatantly AT'd in the fashion that's been stated by many members.
<< <i>CalGold-----there's quite a bit of difference between the color patterns and the intensity of the color between Mint Set Lincoln Cents and the coins being discussed, that's probably why noone mentions anything when the former are pictured. >>
I think the reason no one cries AT when someone posts a mint set toned Lincoln from the 1950’s has precious little to do the color patterns and intensity of color and everything to do with collectors having the experience of finding those coins in mint sets. So those coins do not surprise anyone since the collecting community has experience with them from the source.
Which is why I asked if anyone had experience with IHCs MS or PR that had been kept for long periods in albums. No one has responded in the positive.
Here are three different coin images from three different coins – one obverse and two reverse. Are any of these NT or are they all the products of MS70 or some other AT treatment?
Comments
Several years ago I had a mint set 57 lincoln from a double mint set. It had a very distinct dusty brown lusterless appearance to one side. But underneath I could see bright green toning. I selected an extremely soft wide unabrasive paint brush to lightly stroke away what I felt was a dusty corrosion layer and it quickly revealed a stronger emerald green and highly lustrous surface. In this instance, lightly teasing that dusty surface material away seemed to improve the color and lustre.
Now that was feeling pretty big about the thing, I took the same brush to a 55S lincoln from a mint set showing what appeared to be the same surfaces with multi-colors underneath. Instead of this coin improving, this time it actually killed the luster and nearly eliminated ALL color that had appeared to be there before. I have stopped doing this entirely because of the unpredictable nature of touching the surface with a brush, but a half dozen experiments this revealed a variety of results leading me to believe there were truly different types of toning layers - probably both physically and chemically - on the surface of these copper coins. I wonder if MS70 on that 57 coinn would have revealed the same improvement?? I will never know because you can't turn back time but more pointedly, I dont' like what MS70 doeas to the appearance on copper (blue or not) and so I will never touch the stuff.
Does anyone care to take a stab at what happened on that 57'?
<< <i>Here is a pic of the coin, it was posted above:
Here is a link to the thread ATS. >>
That bright surface sure looks to me like a soap job. I think it's natural soap, though, if that should mean anything. You know, NS.
Drip by drip application of acetone, or even sometines just alcohol, onto one side of the coin in an amount that doesn't overflow the rims often "emulsifies" whatever's there without taking anything off. This won't work on Buffs.
It's just been re-arranged and some masking of the surfaces still remains. From experience I can related that Q-tips are potentially dangerous.
Less is more. Slow is better. Which also means that you should dilute your E-Z-est.
is this a serious question??
<< <i>Where are all the Cool Blue IHC's?.............................it begins with M and ends with 70.
a little forum research will provide you with the names of members involved in one of the West Coast-MS70-buy/crack/enhance/reslab-profit schemes of the early part of this Century. no doubt some IHC's obtain the color you're interested in legitimately, but many of them are blatant AT, yet collectors are willing to pay premiums for them and dealers are willing to vouche for their authenticity and promote them. >>
AMEN brother!
--------T O M---------
-------------------------
<< <i>it's hard to comment on the coin without seeing it, all i know is that green on copper is generally not a good thing, indicative of corrosion. >>
???
Couldn't tell if you were responding to my post Keets, but IMO emerald toning is the ultimate marker of original colorful lincoln toning.
<< <i>i wonder why a Silver or Gold coin wiped with MS70 never seems to have color revealed which was lying under the haze?? could it be that MS70 reacts with copper/bronze to produce the color and doesn't react in a similar fashion with Silver or Gold containing such a low percentage of copper?? >>
You are correct.
I have to agree with MikeinFL. He is spot on. The Large Cent has the look of MS70 application on the reverse. In addition, Mike's analysis appears to be well thought out and accurate.
Another way to get IHC to turn blue is by placing them on a heated element, such as a stovetop or heat source. However, the coin will turn quickly, so the time factor is critical, and there's no turning back.
TRUTH
<< <i> Couldn't tell if you were responding to my post Keets, but IMO emerald toning is the ultimate marker of original colorful lincoln toning. >>
Correct. Emerald, forest or vibrant green is virtually impossible to duplicate. However, lime green on an IHC is not a color I would want.
TRUTH
<< <i>How about this coin? MS70 or natural toning?
is this a serious question?? >>
Yes.
There is enough historical evidence as well as practical evidence that long term storage in mint tissue created a blue tone over deep chocolate brown patina on many coins - some existed in huge hoards in the 1930's. These are found mostly on certain dates of Proof Indian and Lincoln cents 1878 -1915. Also early copper proofs and patterns. This is fact, provable just from looking at old collections.
Then there is these experiments that you are trying on any old copper coin. The testing that you are doing is either too random or too specific. A real proof would be to make a repeatable test that turns a copper coin blue every time. I think the Large cent shows what typically a MS-70 dunked coin looks like - stripped of its originally, not cleaned per se, but not looking like a 200 year-old coin. Not really blue, more like slate color. If you try it on a coin that long ago was stored in a toning environment, then it might be blue, maybe not.
My point is that you have to take into account the storage of the coin long before we were here to make a judgement on whether the toning is caused by the MS-70 or is being uncovered. It is not a one answer fits all.
I think most MS coins which are blue are not original. The toning is the acetone effect of residue left on a thin-film on the surface. If you add a coating of "blue ribbon" to these coins, it cancels the thin-film interference and covers the toning.
Now here is a beautiful coin. Wow!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>i will ask again, why is there no evidence of MS70 reacting in such a manner with Silver and Gold coins?? >>
I will ask the PH.D chemist I keep on retainer (hehehe), but my guess is a 2nd year chemistry major could answer this as easily.
Bill Fivaz, one of the very major contributors to numismatic knowledge over the last 20+ years, probably has informational resources way beyond mine. Reason? Incessant curiosity. If I catch up to him at FUN hopefully I'll remember to ask him. I've known him for 30 years and if you were to ask him yourself you'd get the same answer.
I asked the following question in a thread about two months back and got no positive responses, so I’ll ask again. Does anyone here have first hand experience with MS IHCs that have spent a long time in Waite Raymond pages? What about proofs?
CG
Here are some Todd images of the coin.
I think this is the whole key to the discussion - Is MS70 reacting with the copper? Or is it uncovering existing toning and/or augmenting it with thin-film interference.
A few things about toned copper - The brown tone commonly seen on copper coins is a very sturdy and protective layer. It resists grime and carbon spotting from fingerprints and spittle. Acid-based cleaners like Jewel-luster will destroy this shell and leave the coin open to spotting and eventual retoning, although never quite like the original tone. I don't think this brown copper layer is reactive at all. It is protective and stable. There are beautiful brown copper ancient coins that have a wonderful think brown patina. Blue-toned Proofs are always found with a thick underlying brown patina (at least the ones I have been talking about) Not all dates of Indian cents are found Blue-toned either. Why is that? Pre-1878 dates are much harder to find because they were not included in the hoards that came out in the 1930's. 1864 and 1865 seem to be found occasionally. Maybe they were held back in smaller hoards too. Copper patterns are often found with beautiful toning over hard brown patinas. I would guess that they came from the "Woodin deal" in 1909, again after 50 years in mint tissue.
Toned copper with a more red-gold underlying color are different. Their are numerous ways they got their toning. Maybe they were dipped in cyanide in the 1940's and retoned over time in cardboard holders. Maybe they are recent creations. You can't make a blanket statement about any of them.
<< <i>i will ask again, why is there no evidence of MS70 reacting in such a manner with Silver and Gold coins?? >>
Copper is different than silver and gold. Thus it reacts differently. This is part of the reason why silver and gold are known as noble metals. They are generally unreactive to most chemicals (gold especially).
CalGold-----there's quite a bit of difference between the color patterns and the intensity of the color between Mint Set Lincoln Cents and the coins being discussed, that's probably why noone mentions anything when the former are pictured.
The toning was caused by long term storage in a cardboard album. Perhaps it was dipped back in the 1960's, which accelerated the ability to later tone in the album.
EagleEye-----i'm sort of surprised by your admission that you suspect the 1894/94 was dipped/cleaned since that is exactly what this thread has been targetting, the fact that these vibrantly toned IHC's didn't acquire the tone naturally. i stated as much in my PM to you, that it was fairly common for coins to be cleaned by collectors during the latter part of the 19th Century right on up to the present day. that may have been a light wipe, a rinse of some type or whatever was common practice at the particular time. the term "cleaned and retoned" is one we are all familiar with and from MyLoftyPerch it is one that applies to many of these coins, most that have been pictured throughout the thread.
as i have said several times, it is certain that some IHC's obtain tone such as this naturally but i think it's prudent to warn collectors that there are many out there which are blatantly AT'd in the fashion that's been stated by many members.
<< <i>CalGold-----there's quite a bit of difference between the color patterns and the intensity of the color between Mint Set Lincoln Cents and the coins being discussed, that's probably why noone mentions anything when the former are pictured. >>
I think the reason no one cries AT when someone posts a mint set toned Lincoln from the 1950’s has precious little to do the color patterns and intensity of color and everything to do with collectors having the experience of finding those coins in mint sets. So those coins do not surprise anyone since the collecting community has experience with them from the source.
Which is why I asked if anyone had experience with IHCs MS or PR that had been kept for long periods in albums. No one has responded in the positive.
Here are three different coin images from three different coins – one obverse and two reverse. Are any of these NT or are they all the products of MS70 or some other AT treatment?
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org