PCGS files suit vs. Barry Skog/Burnsville Coin for selling counterfeits - My pics/experience include
Manorcourtman
Posts: 8,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
In a thread posted a few month ago I posted pics of counterfeit Barber halves I rec'd from at that time an unnamed Minnesota coin dealer. In this weeks issue of Coin World, on the front page, it exposes a Lawsuit filed by CU/PCGS against Barry Skog who owns Burnsville Coin Co.. Skog is accussed of ordering and selling fake/countefeit PCGS slabs. In the suit it accuses Skog of knowingly ordering and selling fake PCGS slabs with fake coins. I applaud PCGS for going after this dealer who has screwed me out of over $700 by failing to refund my money for countefeit coins he sold me last January. He actually had over $1750 of my money until the State of Ohio Attorney General's office came to my aid and was able to help me get back $1000 of my money. Another major dealer also rec'd fake PCGS slabs from Skog but I will not speak for him nor his experiences. I spent numerous hours filing reports with the US Postal Inspectors, Secret Service, BBB, as well as at least 3 other Internet police agencies and also filed complaints with Numismatic News, which is where Skog advertised, they ignored me btw. I have given up on my $750 but applaud PCGS for going after this guy. I hope other members here with similar experiences follow up my posts with their pics also. Here's the counterfeits that Skog tried to sell to me:
0
Comments
Man, the date punches on those things are terrible.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I am glad to see that PCGS is attempting to do something about this problem. >>
I agree!!!
I wonder how many other sellers have done what this one has been accused of, by PCGS - sold counterfeit coins in counterfeit holders, ordered from a counterfeiter? If that can be proved - and I sure hope and expect that it can be - at least the seller wont have the "I didn't know they were counterfeit" bologna as a viable defense.
<< <i>asking for three times the amount of damages, is any of that going to the collectors that were duped ? seems almost greedy to ask to be paid three times the damages when the collector is the one who suffered the loss >>
I would guess treble damages is part of the law somewhere.
<< <i>asking for three times the amount of damages, is any of that going to the collectors that were duped ? seems almost greedy to ask to be paid three times the damages when the collector is the one who suffered the loss >>
I believe that "triple damages" is somewhat standard in cases like this, where the damage to the PCGS brand is incalculable.
Individuals who have been duped are free to independently sue the defendant but will probably be at the back of the line if any dough is actually recovered.
Just my non-legal opinion.
<< <i>asking for three times the amount of damages, is any of that going to the collectors that were duped ? seems almost greedy to ask to be paid three times the damages when the collector is the one who suffered the loss >>
I see nothing (almost) greedy about it. Presumably, treble damages is one of the remedies under the law that PCGS seeks to sue under. And regardless of what the buyer ends up getting back, PCGS, no doubt, wants to maintain its reputation, as well as discourage others from ordering and/or selling counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS holders.
As for the buyer of that 1893-s Barber Half...come on, that date should have been a dead giveaway.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>I hope the scumbag gets his.
As for the buyer of that 1893-s Barber Half...come on, that date should have been a dead giveaway. >>
I was the buyer, bought site unseen. As soon as I received/saw it I phoned him that all the coins he sent me were counterfeits and that I was returning them. He went on to ignore me and never answered the phone, nor picked up his packages at the PO. I knew from the get go he sold counterfeits. The Burnsville Police were notified along with the Minneapolis office of the Secret Service. They ignored my complaints!!
edited for spelling!
Knowingly selling fakes is the worst of the worst.
<< <i>having now read the coin world article, im wondering why CU would request the defendants stop manufacturing and importing the counterfeit coins, if the defendants were the ones manufacturing the counterfeits, why would they need to import them ? or does CU believe that the US courts have jurisdiction in china ? >>
To mix metaphors, perhaps casting a squeakier net will attract more flies. If they allege that BS is manufacturing them, with the actual manufacture subcontracted to a place in China and the importation of the counterfeits being just part of his supply chain management process, the SS might be more interested in his operation. Also, there's ever any negotiation in this suit's future, it's probably easier to back down from alleging both manufacturing and importing than it is to add a manufacturing allegation to one of importing.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
is it better than a B&M? or just easier?
Long time eBayer with 100% feedback rating, trying out the PCGS boards to save the fees!
Successful transactions with several board members here including abitofthisabitofthat, marcovan and others
<< <i>anyone that has even the slightest familiarity with barber halves should be able to tell those things are fake. >>
Agreed.
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope the scumbag gets his.
As for the buyer of that 1893-s Barber Half...come on, that date should have been a dead giveaway. >>
I was the buyer, bought site unseen. As soon as I received/saw it I phoned him that all the coins he sent me were counterfeits and that I was returning them. He went on to ignore me and never answered the phone, nor picked up his packages at the PO. I knew from the get go he sold counterfeits. The Burnsville Police were notified along with the Minneapolis office of the Secret Service. They ignored my complaints!!
edited for spelling! >>
I understand now. (I thought maybe you saw them first).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I am assuming the pics you posted of the fakes in the 2x2's are the coins you received and the pics yours -
Is this the same company that sold MANOFCOINS the sandwiched 1932-X in PCGS MS65?
or involved with the 1945 FB dimes in PCGS slabs?
<< <i>I am missing the part about PCGS slabs
I am assuming the pics you posted of the fakes in the 2x2's are the coins you received and the pics yours -
Is this the same company that sold MANOFCOINS the sandwiched 1932-X in PCGS MS65?
or involved with the 1945 FB dimes in PCGS slabs? >>
Yes, the pics in the flips were taken by me. Another Board member has pics of fake slabs he rec'd. That will be up him if he posts them. I only rec'd raw fakes from Skog.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>Just to clarify--these are real Barbers that have had their dates modified, correct? If the whole coin is fake, this makes me frightened....they look good except for the dates, which are definitely not right. >>
They are total fakes! Nothing real about them!!
I'll have photos and my own thread later in the week...
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to clarify--these are real Barbers that have had their dates modified, correct? If the whole coin is fake, this makes me frightened....they look good except for the dates, which are definitely not right. >>
They are total fakes! Nothing real about them!! >>
Not being a Barber collector, they look pretty good to me, except for the date punches. Is it more obvious that they're fake when you see them in real person?
Is there any other way to determine these are fake from the photos, other than the crappy date punches?
Fake Seated Dollars in Fake PCGS Slabs
Since this now a legal matter, I can't say much more than that.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Unless I am disremembering my prelaw days at UT--treble damages may be sued for should the damaged party be a business, not for individuals. Damage done to a business often extends to a larger amount than just the initial loss. Correct me if I am wrong.
Jim >>
Since you asked, please consider yourself corrected.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am missing the part about PCGS slabs
I am assuming the pics you posted of the fakes in the 2x2's are the coins you received and the pics yours -
Is this the same company that sold MANOFCOINS the sandwiched 1932-X in PCGS MS65?
or involved with the 1945 FB dimes in PCGS slabs? >>
My seller is from California. >>
.........MOC - is there anything new to report on that sandwich coin and it's holder yet ?
I do not think PCGS has much choice here. In order to protect its brand, trademark, trade dress, and the like, CU/PCGS must litigate against known or suspected counterfeiters of its product.
<< <i>anyone that has even the slightest familiarity with barber halves should be able to tell those things are fake. >>
Or even with US coins in general. The date numbering is a dead giveaway, as they are too shallow and the tops are too flat.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to clarify--these are real Barbers that have had their dates modified, correct? If the whole coin is fake, this makes me frightened....they look good except for the dates, which are definitely not right. >>
They are total fakes! Nothing real about them!! >>
Not being a Barber collector, they look pretty good to me, except for the date punches. Is it more obvious that they're fake when you see them in real person?
Is there any other way to determine these are fake from the photos, other than the crappy date punches? >>
The denticles are another giveaway. You'll notice at 12 oclock they are almost nonexistant while at 6 they are oversized. You'd also notice surfaces are way off in person.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to clarify--these are real Barbers that have had their dates modified, correct? If the whole coin is fake, this makes me frightened....they look good except for the dates, which are definitely not right. >>
They are total fakes! Nothing real about them!! >>
Not being a Barber collector, they look pretty good to me, except for the date punches. Is it more obvious that they're fake when you see them in real person?
Is there any other way to determine these are fake from the photos, other than the crappy date punches? >>
The denticles are another giveaway. You'll notice at 12 oclock they are almost nonexistant while at 6 they are oversized. You'd also notice surfaces are way off in person. >>
Yeah, those denticles are way off. Thanks.
jezzes , I sure would like to know what to look for as far as a slab that was opened and then re-closed - or had the circular window cut out and then replaced - or how ever the heck it was done
If an expert such as yourself was deceived , and without some info as to what to look for and what the "tells" are ; for all I know such things are all over the place .......
<< <i>No, I paid by personal check. >>
I hope for your sake it's real, but my gut tells me fake w/o even seeing it. Skog offered to send me PCGS graded coins at one point to avoid sending my money back. Man am I glad I didn't do that because I have a feeling I would have got fake slabs. I paid via US Postal Money orders which is why I got the Postal Inspectors involved but they never followed up on my complaints. They suck
<< <i>OMG, I just saw this thread. I purchased a PCGS slabbed coin from this dealer in early November. Just called PCGS and will be sending to them for review as the cert number checks out o.k. per the PCGS web site. If it turns out to be fake, then it will be a hard lesson learned (expensive too!), but if so, would be happy to enter it into evidence against this dealer. >>
Ouch!
I just started buying semi-key Morgans in PCGS plastice recently, only because I was afraid of buying raw b/c of potential Chinese counterfeits. This year alone, I've purchased more than twenty @ 3-figure prices. This new revelation really sucks. Now we have to contend with not only fake coins but fake coins in fake slabs.....grrrrrr!
Not so Cheerful!
Kirk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Manorcourtman, first of all, thanks for going through all the headaches you must have gone thru to help stop this crook and protect our hobby. I have one question, I take it that the dealer did not want to give you a refund willingly, wasn't it amazing to you that when caught he had the audacity to do this. Did he expect you to just give up and walk away. What did he say?--------BigE >>
I had help from others that helped keep me sane through the whole matter. I have alot of time and a long documented papertrail invested in the matter. $1800 is not alot of money to many on these boards but to me and my family it is. The first thing I had to realize was that crooks and scammers have no sense of guilt or moral standards. They would steal from their own mother and have no problem with it. This guy knew exactly what he had and what he was doing, probably from getting away with it numerous times in the past. He thought he could just ignore me and I would go away. Well if it weren't for the Attorney General of my state he would gotten clean away with it. Being 4 states from him and not being in a position to hire a lawyer I had little recourse. So yes to answer your question he did expect me to give up and walk away as I am sure many other small collectors have done. He has numerous complaints filed against him with the Minneapolis BBB which is another organization with little power or worth and I am not banging on them BTW, they are there to simply mediate if possible. Only God knows how much damage he has done to the hobby, PCGS and numerous small collectors across this country. He has been in business for 35 years he boasted to me. It's time for the big boys at PCGS to put a stop to crooks like this.
thanks!