Did I find a 1915 raw Matte Proof Lincoln? Edited to add new pics.
bolivarshagnasty
Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Found this Lincoln at a recent show. Just got a chance to look it over closely. Rough finish in the fields. Several die scratches match Kevin Flynn's diagnostics for a 1915.
I'm 90% sure, but what do you guys think? Did I score? Thanks in advance for your opinion. Shag
So if the rims aren't correct for a MPL, are we looking at a BS using the proof dies???
I'm 90% sure, but what do you guys think? Did I score? Thanks in advance for your opinion. Shag
So if the rims aren't correct for a MPL, are we looking at a BS using the proof dies???
0
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I vote no.
Edited to add 1915 MPL image.
at the rim between IN and GOD running at a diagonal that also matches. Could this be a coincidence? And for the record, you are probably the most knowledgable
individual on MPL's on the boards so I'm not offended by any of your opinions. Shag
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The rims are beveled, most notable at 6 o'clock on the reverse. As the rim drops off into the field, it should make almost a right angle.
PCGS would grade it, if they grade it--never know these days--64RB. So determine the costs involved before submitting.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
WS
Note on the reverse, you will see die deterioration that mirrors the bust of lincoln on the obverse, especially to the left of the O and the C. That never occurs on the matte proofs, but you will find it on MOST lincoln business strikes.
<< <i>But once again we are leaving a big research door open. Just what became of the MPL dies? Is this BS coin made from one of those dies???
WS >>
Good question. And what ever happened to the research on the dies with the diagonal line in the C in CENT found on both the BS and MPLs for several years??
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
-Pau
<< <i>Looks like an obverse MPL die was definitely used, but I think the strike features lean to Business Strike. Any diagnostics for the reverse die?
-Pau >>
I agree. The letters on the right don't look as crisp as on the left due to the business strike.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Could it be that these characteristics were transferred from the newly reworked master hub?
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
first conclusion was that it was not struck with the higher pressure presses in the Medal Room.
When I looked at the die scratch between the N of IN and G of GOD, the appear to be in the same general
location and angle from the rim, but the die scratch from a genuine 1915 MPL looks longer.
I could not tell from the photos the die scratch from the R of LIBERTY. A clearer photo is needed showing the thickness
and length of the die scratch.
In several of the photos, I saw additional scratches, and on a genuine 1915, I observed additional scratches which were
not in these photos.
The reverse photos are needed as they will help in determining what characteristics are similar.
From these photos, my conclusion was that it is not a MPL, of course, seeing a coin is better than a photo.
Of course, it is also possible that MPL coins be picked as BU coins,
remember there was almost no premium on these (8 cents for the cent and nickel), and in addition,
an over stock was sometimes had on some denominations, sometimes the minor proofs were sold
in numbers at the end of the year.
Of course, besides the rims, you would need to examine the surface texture to see if it is granular. Only one set of
working dies was used in 1915 to strike 1,150 Lincoln cents Matte proofs. With that few number of coins,
the rims and design elements should be strong.
1915 Lincoln cent matte proofs were struck from March 23rd through December 22nd. Five different strikings were made.
Proofs were struck in the Medal Room. It is very improbable that the working dies from the Medal Room were taken to the
Coining Room to strike coins for circulation, then returned to the Medal Room.
On the die diagnostic topic, it is always possible that the master die was cleaned and each working die subsequently struck
from that master die will show that scratch. on the MPL, we see a die scratch from the M of UNUM down to the left found
on the reverse, of both proof and mint state over several years.
Just some thoughts
Kevin
a) The strike is not an deep or detailed as 'normal' MPL 1915;
b) The rims bevel in places;
c) The surfaces are not cleanly matte-like to my eye;
d) The mimic diagnostics are not crisp and clear enough from the photos to tell me enough (also, the possible mimic-type diagnostics have other possible causes, as noted);
e) The 'hits' on the reverse "O" in ONE and around the rims would be expected on a BS, and not a Proof (unless the PR were really mishandled);
f) The coin lacks a certain 'crispness' to the lettering that is almost always seen on the MPls. Especially the 1915 and 1916s.
Having said that, the cost of submitting may justify a try.
Duane
all the diagnostic die polish marks (although they all appear much weaker) in the right places. Look at these pics a see if you can detect a granular surface above the date. The finish you see above the date is consistent on both the obverse and reverse. Is this enough of a granularity to change anyone's mind? Still undecided, Shag
From that first photo, the fields appear to have flow lines, which would be consistent with a mint state coin. Usually, a MPL will exhibit flat fields with unmistakable small 'pebbly' granularity pretty much evenly distributed across the field. And the diagnostics are usually very sharp, and not blurry at all.
I owned a very nice MS 1915 once that I would have sworn was a MP. But the more I got to closely examine genuine 1915 MPs, the easier I could pick up on the differences. It just takes a little time to develop an eye for that MP 'look.'
I don't think anyone on the Registry can tell you with certainty if the MP dies were used in later mint state strikings, and that may in fact be possible, but I'm not picking up "MPL" from this particular coin's photos. I've included below an obverse shot of a 1915 BN that shows how crisp a MPL strike of that issue usually looks. Notice not only the rims and fields, but Lincoln's neck, mouth, eye and hair. The coin has a very crisp overall look. I think if you compare that look to the coin you posted you may be able to see some differences.
Hope that's helpful.
Duane
the reasons I participate on the forums. The close up of the 1915 Duane provided is more than enough to convince me of this coin
being a business strike. As Kevin mentioned, with only 1150 MPL's being struck, there would have been no way to deteriorate a
die to the point of my coin not having the squared rims. I bought the 15 as a nice addition to my BS collection because of the beard
detail. It will match nicely with my collection. Once again, thanks to all for your participation and opinions. Shag
<< <i>Looks like an obverse MPL die was definitely used, but I think the strike features lean to Business Strike. Any diagnostics for the reverse die?
-Pau >>
This point was made a few times in the string, and my experience is that finding convincing reverse diagnostics on a 1915 MPL reverse is very very difficult. I have seen specimens that show some nice light swirl diagnostics, but nothing over the top. Kevin has a few examples in his MPL book, but for me, this has been one of the hardest diagnostics to make. If you want to do that research, it's a wide open area.
Same with the questions related to whether the PR dies were used in future mint state strikings. We have no documentary evidence of this yet, although as much appears to be the case for MP Buffalo Nickels vis-a-vis the strike evidence, so I can think that finding the same MS strikes from MP dies in MP Lincolns would not be out of the question.
<< <i>Brian, Can you see the diagonal die scratch on the second leg of the R in Liberty? It matches the photo in Flynn's reference guide. There is also a die scratch starting
at the rim between IN and GOD running at a diagonal that also matches. Could this be a coincidence? And for the record, you are probably the most knowledgable
individual on MPL's on the boards so I'm not offended by any of your opinions. Shag >>
Weren't proof dies sometimes used to strike business issue coins?