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Felix Hernandez wins AL Cy Young !!!

Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Wahoo!!!!

Dave


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Comments

  • daveratdaverat Posts: 164
    Voters got it right, imo he should have won it last year as well.
  • PowderedH2OPowderedH2O Posts: 2,443 ✭✭
    Two years in a row that pitchers from losing teams have managed to get the award without much fanfare or wins. This is a GREAT sign. I thought Price or CC would win this for sure. Congrats to the sportswriters. They got it right!!!
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  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭
    The King!!!!!!!!

    We're just seeing the beginning of what this kid can do people....
  • artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭
    awesome....
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  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭


    << <i>He'll look real nice in a Yankees uniform next year. >>



    My math might be wrong, but I believe a 4 or 5 year contracts lasts....4 or 5 years. This isn't the NFL where a 5 year contract ends after the 2nd year.
  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭
    and somewhere Harold Reynolds, Joe Morgan, and Murray Chass are punching babies...
  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    Do the Yanks even have 4-5 top prospects in their system? Seriously.
  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do the Yanks even have 4-5 top prospects in their system? Seriously.

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  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What a joke. I agree he probably should have deserved it last year but come on....I guess overall record means nothing anymore????

    13-12(.520 winning percentage)

    I know there are going to be a lot of the "but he got no run support"....true, but so did a ton of other pitchers that had low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses. Terrible choice for THIS season. I think they realized they robbed him last year and wanted to make up for it!

  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>Do the Yanks even have 4-5 top prospects in their system? Seriously. >>



    Legit prospects or overhyped AAAA guys??
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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭
    Do the Yanks even have 4-5 top prospects in their system? Seriously.

    I guess it depends on your definition of top prospects. They have one top prospect in future DH Jesus Montero who has been masquerading as a catcher in AAA. Then after that just a handful of mid-tier prospects like Manny Banuelos, Austin Romine, Gary Sanchez, Brandon Laird etc. Montero would warrant a quality trade chip but without including someone like Phil Hughes the Yankees aren't touching a package for Felix even if Zduriencik was interested in Sanchez. I mean if the Yankees offered Hughes, Brett Gardner, and Sanchez I'm sure Zduriencik would listen. Besides, the Yanks had the opportunity to trade Sanchez and one of Joba or Hughes for Halladay last year and passed so they seem pretty intent on holding onto Sanchez.
  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>Do the Yanks even have 4-5 top prospects in their system? Seriously.

    I guess it depends on your definition of top prospects. They have one top prospect in future DH Jesus Montero who has been masquerading as a catcher in AAA. Then after that just a handful of mid-tier prospects like Manny Banuelos, Austin Romine, Gary Sanchez, Brandon Laird etc. Montero would warrant a quality trade chip but without including someone like Phil Hughes the Yankees aren't touching a package for Felix even if Zduriencik was interested in Sanchez. I mean if the Yankees offered Hughes, Brett Gardner, and Sanchez I'm sure Zduriencik would listen. Besides, the Yanks had the opportunity to trade Sanchez and one of Joba or Hughes for Halladay last year and passed so they seem pretty intent on holding onto Sanchez. >>



    Exactly. Look at the "best offer" they made for Lee this year that didn't get it done.
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  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>He'll look real nice in a Yankees uniform next year. >>



    My math might be wrong, but I believe a 4 or 5 year contracts lasts....4 or 5 years. This isn't the NFL where a 5 year contract ends after the 2nd year. >>





    Thank you Captain Obvious. There's this thing in team sports that they call a "trade" that I once heard about. After the Yanks hopefully land Cliff Lee, Felix should be a top priority. They have a lot of prospects and young major leaguers that may make sense for Seattle if they don't feel like they're prime to contend in the next couple of years. Especially with Texas and the Angels looking to press in the next couple of years, as well as a seasoning As team. If Seattle feels like they aren't going to contend, it may well make good sense to transfer Felix's salary to someone else (even though it is a bargain) if they can get 4-5 major leaguers and/or A level prospects. >>



    I'll be captain obvious again...just because the Yankees are dumb enough to overpay a juicer like A-Rod, and the most overrated player in the game (Jeter), they think others are dumb enough to trade players under contract- especially an elite SP? I usually don't call people names on the internet...but you're an idiot.
  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭


    << <i>They clearly have the prospects to pull off a trade as much most teams, and better, because they can absorb the salary and even offer some money as part of the package. When Baseball America comes out with their rankings, I doubt they'll be listed any less than 15 and I expect Top 10. As for Hughes, I don't have a problem including him. Of course, the remainder of the package is not going to be as hefty with him in there. Gardner and Joba are also players that would be included in a possible deal. They have the players to get this done. No question. It's just a question of how willing Seattle is.

    As for Lee, that supposedly was a done deal and the Yanks were not offering THAT much because they felt they'd go after Lee in the free agency period anyway. Lee himself stated that he thought he was heading to New York. The deal supposedly would have gone through were it not for the uncertainty surrounding an injury for Adams. They have PLENTY more than what was offered for Lee. >>



    LMFAO!!! What a gawd damn joke!!! If those "prospects" were with any other organization, the general feeling on them would be that they'd pan out to be AAA players at best....
  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>They clearly have the prospects to pull off a trade as much most teams, and better, because they can absorb the salary and even offer some money as part of the package. When Baseball America comes out with their rankings, I doubt they'll be listed any less than 15 and I expect Top 10. As for Hughes, I don't have a problem including him. Of course, the remainder of the package is not going to be as hefty with him in there. Gardner and Joba are also players that would be included in a possible deal. They have the players to get this done. No question. It's just a question of how willing Seattle is.

    As for Lee, that supposedly was a done deal and the Yanks were not offering THAT much because they felt they'd go after Lee in the free agency period anyway. Lee himself stated that he thought he was heading to New York. The deal supposedly would have gone through were it not for the uncertainty surrounding an injury for Adams. They have PLENTY more than what was offered for Lee. >>



    LMFAO!!! What a gawd damn joke!!! If those "prospects" were with any other organization, the general feeling on them would be that they'd pan out to be AAA players at best.... >>



    Exactly; anyone want to run down the list of Yankee prospects that were traded away and amounted to anything? Then compare that to the list of ones that flamed out royally after being traded. Aside from Montero, who will need to move off the position that provides most of his prospect shine, who do they have that sniffs the BA top 100 besides MAYBE Austin Romine who is likely 2-3 years away?
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  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>

    Listen, if you think that any player is untradeable, then you're the idiot and obviously have never followed the game. And no one is talking about just prospects, I've included a guy that has already proven himself to be at least a 3rd starter caliber starting pitcher, that hasn't even hit arbitration yet. No one's arguing that it's going to be cheap but you're obviously letting your Yankee hatred, and more importantly your overwhelming obvious fear of them getting better, cloud your judgment. >>



    "Yankees hatred" vs "sense of entitlement" is always a fun debate to watch. image
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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭
    They clearly have the prospects to pull off a trade as much most teams, and better, because they can absorb the salary and even offer some money as part of the package. When Baseball America comes out with their rankings, I doubt they'll be listed any less than 15 and I expect Top 10. As for Hughes, I don't have a problem including him. Of course, the remainder of the package is not going to be as hefty with him in there. Gardner and Joba are also players that would be included in a possible deal. They have the players to get this done. No question. It's just a question of how willing Seattle is.

    As for Lee, that supposedly was a done deal and the Yanks were not offering THAT much because they felt they'd go after Lee in the free agency period anyway. Lee himself stated that he thought he was heading to New York. The deal supposedly would have gone through were it not for the uncertainty surrounding an injury for Adams. They have PLENTY more than what was offered for Lee.

    the deal didn't go through because the Rangers relented and added Smoak. David Adams wasn't holding up any trade, that was just a PR move to make Zduriencik look like he didn't back out of a verbal agreement with Cashman. Not that Felix will get traded...at least not until a year before he hits FA again, but there are other teams out there with more to offer the M's in young players and can absorb the salary. The Red Sox for starters have a better crop of young talent and minor leaguers....Angels, Rangers do as well. I know as a Yankee fan you're contractually obligated to shill whenever possible...but if you ever tire of your Yankee homerism, there is always a place for you in St. Louis Cardinal nation. You'll have to dial down the raging myopic sense of entitlement though...as they really don't like to overpay people unless your name is Kyle Lohse.

    Also, one the reasons you don't see high profile names coming from the Yanks is they never have a very high pick, which is where the top guys mostly come from (Price, Mauer, Texeira, Upton, etc.).

    yeah well it really doesn't matter when they have the ability to use (read; abuse the flawed system) International FA...where they've signed 4 of their current top 6 prospects including Montero. Thankfully the smaller market teams like the Pirates and Royals are finally getting on board in INTL FA.

    << Exactly; anyone want to run down the list of Yankee prospects that were traded away and amounted to anything? Then compare that to the list of ones that flamed out royally after being traded. Aside from Montero, who will need to move off the position that provides most of his prospect shine, who do they have that sniffs the BA top 100 besides MAYBE Austin Romine who is likely 2-3 years away? >>

    Romine isn't a top prospect. He's at best mid-tier, and is more regarded for his defense as you can see by the stellar 268/.324/.402 (supported by a .316 BABIP) he rolled up at AA. They had Arodys Vizcaino but he was dealt in the Javy Vasquez deal. In the last 5 years the upper-tier prospects that the Yankees have traded include

    Austin Jackson (2nd in AL ROY)
    Jose Tabata (pretty nice year in PITT though he's nothing spectacular considering he was once championed as a "five star five tool prospect"...of course he never hit for power).
    Ian Kennedy (pretty solid year for AZ)

    but yeah, most of the prospects from large market teams are always overrated. Obviously some do make it, but as a Cubs fan I can roll out a laundry list of busts and nothings from Ty Griffin to Earl Cunningham to Corey Patterson to Felix Pie to Hee Seop Choi. Look at what the overhyped Mets prospects brought the Minny Twins in the Johan Santana deal.

    Phil Humber former 1st rounder released, now in KC
    Kevin Mulvey waived, now in AZ
    Carlos Gomez now in MIL - flipped for JJ Hardy before last season.
    Deolis Guerra - only remaining piece of the trade who rolled up a tidy 6.32 ERA at AA this past year.

    so in the end the Twins will wind up with at best a year and a half of decent production from JJ Hardy for Santana. Of course they didn't have to pay Johan eight figures.





  • SabermanSaberman Posts: 677


    << <i>What a joke. I agree he probably should have deserved it last year but come on....I guess overall record means nothing anymore????

    >>



    Not if you are trying to decipher who the best pitcher was.

    A pitchers' IP, runs allowed, hits allowed, and walks allowed will paint the more accurate picture of worth, rather than w/l record(which is extremely flawed for individual seasons).

    I am shocked at the vote...because the writers actually showed they do have half a brain. Too bad they didn't use it when they gave Colon the Cy Young over Johan, or Bob Welch over Roger Clemens....and countless other times where they judged pitchers based on things out of their control.

    Let me ask you...do you like to be judged on things that you have little or no control over?
    Are you sure about that five minutes!?
  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well said, Saberman.

    Dave
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  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>I know there are going to be a lot of the "but he got no run support"....true, but so did a ton of other pitchers that had low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses. Terrible choice for THIS season. I think they realized they robbed him last year and wanted to make up for it! >>



    Could you name off these pitchers who had "low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses"?

    Hernandez, btw, had the best ERA in the majors among starters.
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  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I know there are going to be a lot of the "but he got no run support"....true, but so did a ton of other pitchers that had low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses. Terrible choice for THIS season. I think they realized they robbed him last year and wanted to make up for it! >>



    Could you name off these pitchers who had "low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses"?

    Hernandez, btw, had the best ERA in the majors among starters. >>



    I'm not saying anyone else had a lower ERA in the majors...I'm saying that guys like Oswalt, Dickey and Santana all had fairly low ERA(under 3.00) and had similar records. I just think overall winning percentage should have more of an influence on the award.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>I'm not saying anyone else had a lower ERA in the majors...I'm saying that guys like Oswalt, Dickey and Santana all had fairly low ERA(under 3.00) and had similar records. I just think overall winning percentage should have more of an influence on the award. >>



    Oswalt, Santana, and Dickey didn't win because they're in the NL and Roy Halladay was a no-doubter for the NL Cy Young Award.

    Halladay 2.44 - 250.2 ip - 1.041 whip - 7.30 so/bb
    Oswalt 2.76 - 211.2 ip - 1.025 whip - 3.51 so/bb
    Dickey 2.84 - 174.1 ip - 1.187 whip - 2.48 so/bb
    Santana 2.98 - 199.0 ip - 1.176 whip - 2.62 so/bb
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  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I know there are going to be a lot of the "but he got no run support"....true, but so did a ton of other pitchers that had low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses. Terrible choice for THIS season. I think they realized they robbed him last year and wanted to make up for it! >>



    Could you name off these pitchers who had "low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses"?

    Hernandez, btw, had the best ERA in the majors among starters. >>



    I'm not saying anyone else had a lower ERA in the majors...I'm saying that guys like Oswalt, Dickey and Santana all had fairly low ERA(under 3.00) and had similar records. I just think overall winning percentage should have more of an influence on the award. >>



    But why? By all stat measures, wins are probably the pitching stat that pitchers have the least control over. With that offense the M's were running out there, he's lucky he won any game where he gave up more than a run.
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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭
    In 10 (29%) of Felix's starts, the M's scored 0 or 1 runs.
  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'm not saying anyone else had a lower ERA in the majors...I'm saying that guys like Oswalt, Dickey and Santana all had fairly low ERA(under 3.00) and had similar records. I just think overall winning percentage should have more of an influence on the award. >>



    Oswalt, Santana, and Dickey didn't win because they're in the NL and Roy Halladay was a no-doubter for the NL Cy Young Award.

    Halladay 2.44 - 250.2 ip - 1.041 whip - 7.30 so/bb
    Oswalt 2.76 - 211.2 ip - 1.025 whip - 3.51 so/bb
    Dickey 2.84 - 174.1 ip - 1.187 whip - 2.48 so/bb
    Santana 2.98 - 199.0 ip - 1.176 whip - 2.62 so/bb >>



    I'm not making the case for any of them winning it....you said to name some pitchers with low(er) ERA that have almost as many losses as wins....I named 3. I think Halladay clearly deserved it in the NL. I'm guessing we will someday see a starting pitcher with a losing record(not a closer) win the Cy Young!
  • artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭
    He was the MOST deserving pitcher this year by the stats. No question.

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  • bkingbking Posts: 3,095 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I know there are going to be a lot of the "but he got no run support"....true, but so did a ton of other pitchers that had low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses. Terrible choice for THIS season. I think they realized they robbed him last year and wanted to make up for it! >>



    Could you name off these pitchers who had "low(er) ERA but had a ton of losses"?

    Hernandez, btw, had the best ERA in the majors among starters. >>



    I'm not saying anyone else had a lower ERA in the majors...I'm saying that guys like Oswalt, Dickey and Santana all had fairly low ERA(under 3.00) and had similar records. I just think overall winning percentage should have more of an influence on the award. >>



    Yes, but you haven't presented any reason WHY it should have more influence. Taken to the absurd, a guy with a 1.00 ERA and a 10-20 record (let's picture the M's offense with even worse results) would probably not win the award in your book. What possible logic is there in blaming the pitcher for his team's offensive ineptitude??
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  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nevermind, you guys are right. Wins don't matter!
  • GootGoot Posts: 3,496
    Based on the general response in this thread, you guys will have fun reading this guys opinion... image


    LINK
  • SabermanSaberman Posts: 677
    Hallco,

    What are you trying to measure?

    I could see your point(and that idiot that wrote the article that Goot posted) IF you were judging the World Series winner based on SlG%, or OPS, or ERA+.

    But your not. Your judging the performance of the individual player, not the team. In order to do that, you have to evaluate him based on HIS performance, adn not his teammates. When you are using W/L record, that is heavily based on the performance of his teammates.

    So I ask again, would YOU like to be judged on things that you have little or no control over??

    I do have to say that it is refreshing to see the number of posters on here recognizing the merits of this Cy Young winner. In the past, most of the posts would say something like, "yeah but C.C. was pitching to the score," etc...

    People on here used to argue that they only count the measurements used on the back of the baseball cards, so they only used RBI and ignored the more accurate measures... The funny thing was that when they wrote that message, Topps had just put OPS on the back of their cards for that year...that was quite funny.

    People cling to the way it was. If you wanted to back to the way it was in measuring players, then you have to use Runs Scored, Putouts, and Assists to measure batters, as those were the key measures in the box scores in the beginning of baseball.

    Are you sure about that five minutes!?
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>'m not making the case for any of them winning it....you said to name some pitchers with low(er) ERA that have almost as many losses as wins....I named 3. I think Halladay clearly deserved it in the NL. I'm guessing we will someday see a starting pitcher with a losing record(not a closer) win the Cy Young! >>



    Hernandez didn't just have the best ERA in baseball, he also had more IP, a lower WHIP, and a better so/bb ratio than the other 2 guys in the top 3, not to mention more strikeouts.

    Hernandez 2.27 era - 249.2 ip - 1.057 whip - 3.31 so/bb
    Price 2.72 era - 208.2 ip - 1.193 whip - 2.38 so/bb
    Sabathia 3.18 era - 237.2 ip - 1.191 whip - 2.66 so/bb

    Also, as far as run support goes, Hernandez had an average of 3.1 runs of support behind him. Price had 5.5 and Sabathia had 5.8. Put Hernandez on the Rays or the Yankees and he'd probably have had 20+ wins.
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  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭


    Hernandez didn't just have the best ERA in baseball, he also had more IP, a lower WHIP, and a better so/bb ratio than the other 2 guys in the top 3, not to mention more strikeouts.

    Hernandez 2.27 era - 249.2 ip - 1.057 whip - 3.31 so/bb
    Price 2.72 era - 208.2 ip - 1.193 whip - 2.38 so/bb
    Sabathia 3.18 era - 237.2 ip - 1.191 whip - 2.66 so/bb

    Also, as far as run support goes, Hernandez had an average of 3.1 runs of support behind him. Price had 5.5 and Sabathia had 5.8. Put Hernandez on the Rays or the Yankees and he'd probably have had 20+ wins. >>



    I think if Felix pitched EXACTLY the way he did and played for the Rangers he'd have 25+ wins since he would have faced the M's 4 or so times in addition to having outstanding run support
  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi Hallco -

    It's clear who you think should 'not' have won it.

    I'm just curious. In your opinion, who should have won the AL Cy Young this year?

    Thx, Dave
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  • estangestang Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭
    I would have voted for David Price. He pitched solidly for a team with games that mattered.

    "King Felix" went through a stretch in May (when his team was still in it) and lost 7 decisions in a row and balloned his ERA to 3.50.

    I'm not saying he's not a good pitcher, but 13 wins just isn't enough for me.

    At least Steve Carlton managed to win 27 for a team that won less than 60....
    Enjoy your collection!
    Erik
  • SabermanSaberman Posts: 677


    << <i>I would have voted for David Price. He pitched solidly for a team with games that mattered.

    "King Felix" went through a stretch in May (when his team was still in it) and lost 7 decisions in a row and balloned his ERA to 3.50.

    I'm not saying he's not a good pitcher, but 13 wins just isn't enough for me. >>



    That is just silly talk, good lord.

    Weren't they also still in it on April 30th when his ERA was sitting at 2.23???? You realize that they were three games back at that point...hmm, wouldn't a 2.23 ERA be pretty good at a time when they were only three back? LOL.

    So in that May stretch you speak of, he basically had his two worst starts that ballooned his ERA...and that is the cause for your whole argument?? Look at his May log...

    May 1, 4.1 IP, 5ER...a loss. This ballooned his ERA from 2.23 to 3.10
    May 7, 3.1 IP, 7ER...a loss. This ballooned his ERA from 3.10 to 4.30. Yup, your right...I guess because the Mariners were still in it, and it was early enough where he had two of his worst starts of the year...when the volatility of a rate state is so high...I guess he should not win the Cy Young because of this..LOL

    May 13, 7IP, 1 ER, ND
    May 18, 6IP, 3 ER, ND
    May 23, 7IP, 2 ER....a loss
    May 29, 8 IP, 1 ER, ND

    Yeah, those last four May starts were terrible....what are you talking about???

    So, in April's five starts, he had an ERA of 2.23, and only managed two wins in five starts. Then he had two of his worst starts of the year, and deserved a loss. Then he pitched three out of four games where he deserved a win...but didn't get any because of poor run support.

    Again, with the wins....get out of the dark ages aleady.

    I guess you believe Jack Morris pitched to the score too. If you do, ask yourself this....if a guy did have the ability to pitch to the score, and his teammates only scored one run per game for him...would he then produce a 0.69 ERA so that he could maintain his winning ways???

    Are you sure about that five minutes!?
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While I agree that Felix is the rightful winner of the AL Cy Young this year, let me play devil's advocate just a bit:

    David Price, while his rate stats like ERA, were not as good, was actually a bit more consistent than Felix this year. Hernandez had 5 starts where he allowed 5 or more runs*, while Price had just 2. So Price had fewer horrible starts his team had little shot at winning that Felix. That should probably count for something.

    Tabe

    * - In one of his five 5+ run starts, Felix gave up 6 runs, all unearned. Truth is, he was hammered in that game and the errors let him off the hook.
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