What? Jeter won a Gold Glove this year?

vladguerrero

All I have to say is wow.


Jeter 2010 Gold Glove Winner

digicat

Gold Gloves could be a good thing, but as evidenced by the fact that Rafael Palmeiro won a Gold Glove for the 28 games of work he put in at 1st base in 1999, it's obvious that the process is deeply flawed.

lanemyer85

it's a year old, but still relevant

For those that believe in the advanced defensive metric UZR/150 - Alexei Ramirez should have been the AL winner as SS

I filtered players who played at least 1000 innings at SS in 2010 (JJ Hardy would be at +12.8 but he only played about 60% of the season).

1. A.Ramirez - +10.1
2. Pennington - +8.8
3. C.Izturis - +5.8
4. Andrus - +0.3
5. E. Aybar -2.5
6. Scutaro -3.3
7. Jeter -5.4
8. Y.Betancourt -9.2
9. Bartlett -13.2

Garabaldi

All through the season you hear how his range and play has slipped at SS, but he still wins a Gold Glove.

MantleMarisFordBerra

No one can deny that voted upon awards (like Gold Gloves, MVPs, Cy YOungs, etc...) have a little bit of "popularity contest" element to them. Here's a great story on SI today about it. Good read.. Nonetheless DJ did have a great season at short, even if his range is becoming limited with age.

DeutscherGeist

I don't have a problem with Jeter getting another Gold Glove, but that one time when Palmeiro got the Gold Glove just for playing a handful of games at first base was ridiculous. Were there no decent defensive first basemen that played the entire season? I did not check, but there had to been someone like a Wally Joyner or JT Snow out there.

lanemyer85

All through the season you hear how his range and play has slipped at SS, but he still wins a Gold Glove.

I think even casual baseball fans realize it's just as much of an offensive award as it defensive...and even with his worst full season, Jeter's offense was still among the best (or at least right there with Alexei Ramirez) in the AL simply due to the lack of offense depth at the position in the AL. The same argument can be made for Robinson Cano who wasn't anywhere near being the best defensive 2B in the AL this year.

1. M. Ellis +12.7
2. O. Hudson +12.0
3. A. Hill +4.3
4. Kinsler +4.1
5. Cano -0.9
6. Beckham -1.2
7. Kendrick -7.3
8. Figgins -12.6

Teixeira was also markedly outclassed at 1B

Daric Barton +14.2
Teixeira -2.4

Connecticoin

Wow, even Bootaro was better than Jeter -- the award truly is a joke now. Can Jeter give the 2006 award to Alex Gonzalez now?

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Jeter could win 20 gold gloves and it still wouldn't make up for the MVPs that he should have gotten but didn't. >>





Good one! Wait....were you being serious? Nah, you couldn't be. I'll just assume you were making a joke.

As for this "Gold Glove", I really don't know what it signifies anymore. When the next-to-worst fielding SS in all of baseball wins one, I'm not sure what to make of it.

lanemyer85

Jeter was deserving of being a runner up to the MVP last year. Defensive inefficiencies aside.

lanemyer85

well that was one of what, 3 years that he was in the top 3 of MVP voting I believe. People can make convincing arguments that he was behind Ben Zobrist in overall value last year. You can argue this kind of stuff in most any year.

So which years have you bunged up...

1998
1. Juan Gonzalez (juicer, wasn't even as good that year as fellow 8th place juicer Joey Belle)
2. Nomar ..946 OPS, slightly below average defense, playoff appearance
3. Jeter.864 OPS & below average defense
T4. Griffey Jr (.977 OPS) no playoff appearance
T4. Mo Vaughn (.994 OPS Juicer)

1999
1. I-rod (.914 OPS, Gold Glove defense, juicer)
2. Pedro (ridiculous 8.3 WAR & greatest SP season since Carlton in '72)
3. R.Alomar (.955 OPS Gold Glove defender...probable juicer IMO)
4. ManRam (1.105 OPS, terrible defender, juicer)
5. Palmeiroid (1.050 OPS, very good defender, juicer)
6. Jeter (.989 OPS, below average defense)
7. Nomar (1.022 OPS medicore defense)


2006
1. Morneau (.934 OPS)
2. Jeter (.900 OPS)
3. Ortiz (1.049 OPS) (juicer & DH)
4. Big Hurt (.926 OPS & DH)
5. J.Dye (1.006 OPS & terrible defensive RFer)
6. Joe Mauer (.936 OPS & Gold Glover...overall numbers very similar to Jeter's aside from the SBs)

Jeter - .343/.417/.483
Mauer - 347/.429/.507

2009
1. Mauer (1.031 OPS & Gold Glove defense)
2. Tex (.948 OPS & Gold Glove defense)
3. Jeter (.871 OPS & turned in a decent (for him) defensive campaign)
4. M. Cabrera (.942 OPS terrible defender)
5. K. Morales (.924 OPS, average defender)
8. Zobrist (.948 OPS & played 7 different positions including SS to a total +16.4 UZR/150)

so I guess you can argue '98 & '99 depending on whether you believe Nomar and/or Pedro were juicers. IMO R.Alomar was likely on the gas in his mid to late career so I could see Jeter deserving the MVP in '99 since I"d never vote for a SP...but that's about it. In 2006 Mauer was just as good, if not better, given his defense, and the Twins made the playoffs so Jeter gets no edge there.

Garabaldi

I stopped paying attention to MVP awards after Pedro was screwed in 1999.

lanemyer85

1999 & 2006

he wasn't better than Mauer or Morneau in 2006. 1999...perhaps, if Nomar was juicing, which I believe he was.

lanemyer85

IMO, he was better than Mauer or Morneau in 2006. Morneau should be obvious considering the position he plays. As for Mauer, he played 120 games as a catcher vs Jeter's 150 at SS with marginally less offense but more SBs and better base running. I objectively believe Jeter was the correct choice.

Games played is a topper? I mean Josh Hamilton missed the entire month of Sept and he's going to win the AL MVP because the rest of his season still towered over the competition. Otherwise it's a minimal factor, and you can't make a compelling argument as to why Jeter was more valuable than Mauer or Morneau in 2006. For starters, Better baserunning...you can't quantify that. Mauer is a great baserunner and Jeter fluctuates. Peruse some of his SB rates over the years, there's more than a couple where he's barely 50% in SB/Caught Stealing rate.,.'96, '97, '98, '03, '05, '07 all at or under 50% SB/CS rates which = bad baserunner needlessly giving up outs and runs scored opps. The standard is 75% success rate or don't run. Not to mention Mauer being vastly superior at defense at a premium position and handling a staff. Playing 20 more games than Mauer doesn't make him a better candidate when he's posting lesser numbers.

1999 is a different matter. That's the year I wouldn't have a problem if he had won it. Pedro had the best numbers but I'd never vote a SP as MVP no matter how dominant he was. Nomar comes into play because he he posted a ridiculous 1.022 OPS. He was an extra base hit machine in '99. 27 HRs, 42 2Bs, 104 RBIs, batting title - .357/.418/.603, 14/17 SBs, only K'd 39 times, and average defense. Jeter - .349/.438/.552, .989 OPS, 24 HRs, 102 RBIs, 116 K's, 19/27 SBs. I mean most of Nomar's numbers aside from total steals which is meaningless to me compared to SB/success rate which Jeter's is poor are won by Nomar. Jeter has him in runs and walks but that's about it, while playing slightly lesser defense.

Mickey71

Someone was guessing on alot of Juicers and I tend to agree that he is correct on every one of them. Throw Piazza and a few more in the mix and I think we've named them all as far as MVP candidate Juicers go. Unfortunately, but true.

Mickey71

By the way...I'm a big Jeter fan and he has just missed the MVP like 3 times. That being said-I only think he had a real solid shot once. The other times the correct choice was made.

Connecticoin

<< <i>1999 & 2006. >>



Good gawd, what a homer.

lanemyer85

where are you getting my 'mancrush' for Morneau? I simply said you can't make a convincing argument that Jeter was better, and actually I've made the case for Mauer over both of them pretty clear. MVP doesn't take into acct positional scarcity, this isn't a fantasy league, and even if it did, there's no position of offensive scarcity more than C. But I guess I'm getting the same smoking material from the guy who supplies your 'objectivity'.

Of course games played is a factor. If someone played 50 games with a 250 OPS+, I'm sure you would be inclined to give it to someone else. In 99 for instance, Jeter played in over 97% of the games vs Nomar at 83%. How is not a factor when it goes directly into EVERY stat that is compiled, Hits, HRs, RBIs, WARs, etc. The only thing it doesn't impact are the average stats (BA, SLG, OBP, OPS) but those are analytical measures and I think virtually anyone can agree that at some point, the number of games (or starts or ABs, etc.) becomes a factor. That Hamilton may win the MVP would only be because his offense was arguably the best and he plays a good CF. Still, I'm not convinced he should get it. It's a tough year to decide.

This example is ridiculous because if someone played only 50 games their counting stats aren't going to measure up to someone who played 140-160. You're not going to win an MVP off of rate stats anyway. You can play 20-30 fewer games and still dwarf the competition...like Hamilton did this year. And quite frankly a catcher should be rested at least 25-30 games per season anyway. Even aside from GP, Mauer still outperformed Jeter in every stat that mattered, the guy (Mike Redmond) who replaced him in the games he was rested rolled out a tidy .341/.365/.413/.778. 23 RBIs and was also an outstanding defensive catcher. If Jeter needs to swipe 20+ bags a year to pad his value at a clip in the 60-70 percentile, well goody gumdrops for him, but that's not exactly valuable to me. I mean can you confirm that one of those SBs actually led to a win, or that one of his CS didn't result in a loss? Personally I'll worry about something you omitted that actually matters, like Jeter's 104 Ks to Mauer's 54.

and WAR for positional players is woefully flawed on a one year sample. Because it's a descriptive metric, it's one that really needs 2-3 years of data. Case in point, the AL leader in WAR for 2010 is Evan Longoria at 7.7...guess who is #2...Shin Soo Choo at 7.3 ahead of Pujols 7.2 and the guy who outplayed Pujols this year - Votto at 6.2. So it's not something that you'd really want to use as a baseline. It's just another factor to take into acct, perhaps a bit higher on the list than SBs.

He GIDP'd 13 times vs Mauer's 24.

and did you bother to check to see how many times Jeter came to the plate with runners on base compared to Mauer? Seeing that Jeter was hitting leadoff and Mauer in the 3 hole. 301 for Mauer, 258 for Jeter. Not that GIDP means anything to an MVP discussion. You know one is reaching when GIDP makes a personal appearance.

And he's not anywhere near as good defensively IMO as you seem to let on.

and you're basing this on what? The 9 Twins vs Yankees games you may or may not have watched? Even the the most basic of stats shows a .996 FP%, 22/48 CS.. No UZR for catchers but there is an advanced metric called TZ for positional players. 2006 - Mauer +6.0, Jeter -5.3. You can keep trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but you're not going to convince anyone that Jeter was better than Mauer or even Morneau in 2006. Focus on 1999.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>

<< <i>1999 & 2006. >>



Good gawd, what a homer. >>



I know. That's why you can't argue using statistics, common sense, or anything else measurable when you discuss the almighty Jeter. He's just great. That's all. Don't ask why, he just is.

Go with it - it's easier to laugh at them than argue.

Garabaldi

Jeter has all my respect, but he did not deserve the Gold Glove.

Saberman

I don't have much time to post...

Sneezing at 34 SB and just 5 CS is just not right. If one can show that all the SB came when they were up by seven runs, then there may be a point. Whether or not they won or lost the game has more to do with the teammates or chance, than it does the value of a SB or a CS.

Jeter logged in 107 more plate appearancs(some of that due to a higher spot in the lineup though), and 15 more games played.

Mauer had him 140- 132 in OPS+

Considering the stolen bases, and the time logged on the field, it looks like their offense is about equal.


It comes down to their defensive value then. That can be looked at a few ways...but the phrase, "toss-up" keeps coming to my mind in this case overall.

The one thing I am certain, is that picking Morneau over either one of these guys is simply a bad joke.

sagard

How can anyone assume that Jeter/Mauer/etc... any other big leaguer is clean from steroids or any other performance enhancing program?

Make fun of all the guys that got caught, but I'd assume there are at least four or five users for every guy that got listed in the group of 103.

As for the thread, Jeter is just another player in a long line of undeserving gold winners. Unfortunately he can't hear us whine, because he has five WS rings stuffed in his ears.

lanemyer85

For the record, in 2006 he stole 34 bases (once again) at an 87% clip. He is a career 79% SB guy so I'm not sure why you are constantly misrepresenting his running game. As for the specifics of the 2006 SBs and CSs.

that's because you're solely focusing on 2006 to make your argument. I was referring to both 1998 and 1999 as well as 2006 where his best opportunity exists for an MVP...when he was a not so impressive 18/27 & 28/37. Like I've said three times now...focus on '99. This is the only year where you can make a legit case that "that he should have gotten but didn't." as per your original 'objective' post...well depending on one's view of R.Alomar's chemical composition. And for the 4th time, I'm making the case for Mauer, not Morneau.

Considering the stolen bases, and the time logged on the field, it looks like their offense is about equal. It comes down to their defensive value then. That can be looked at a few ways...but the phrase, "toss-up" keeps coming to my mind in this case overall.

you've successfully repeated everything that I've already said. Except for quantifying defense. No one is "sneezing" at Jeter's 34/39 SB totals (Mauer was 8/11 btw), but Jeter's defense at the 2nd most important defensive position is so poor, and Mauer whiffed at a 50% clip at what Jeter did, that Mauer deserves the edge. Mauer's elite level defense at the most important defensive position accounts for more value than Jeter's SBs IMO. I know casual baseball fans don't pay any attention to defense, but a simple recent example can show just how valuable it is. Exhibit A - the 2010 Oakland A's. Led the AL in Team ERA at 3.58 despite having their combined FIP at 4.13 and despite a staff who largely pitches to contact with sinker ballers like Cahill, Mazzaro, and Braden thanks in large part to their defense.

C Kurt Suzuki +7 FSR
1B Daric Barton +14.2 UZR
2B Mark Ellis +12.7 UZR
SS Pennington +8.8 UZR
3B Kouzmanoff +17.5 UZR
CF Crisp +17.3 UZR

Barton, Ellis, Kouzmanoff and Crisp all rated 1st at their positions in the AL. Pennington and Suzuki were 2nd in the AL at their respective positions. They largely accounted for saving more than a half a run per game on defense. Anyway, I give up. Jeter should have roughly 15 MVPs at this point. It's all just a Goldman Sachs like conspiracy against the Yankees and their vaunted captain.

Saberman

I typed some stuff up, but forgot to log in...and lost it all. Sooooo, two things...

1) Lanemeyer, the use of defensive metrics on the board is an "awesome spectacle," kind of like your name was on the slopes

2) I already spent a day discussing the merits of another 'toss up' between Fred Lynn and Kirby Puckett. I don't now if I have the energy to partake in another toss-up discussion!! I am confident that both were better than Morneau though, and that the voting was so bad that there were TWO deserving players better than the winner. One would think it was a RYan Howard vote where there are typically ten guys behind him that are more deserving.