1826 8R Libertad - OK now I am confused - Real or Fake

tydye

Just picked this up the other day. I should start collecting these by date. I think I have about 3 now. Check out the die crack by the wing



3 things are off
weight is 26.3 compared to 26.9, 27.0 and 27.0 for my other 3
reeding
orientation

bidask

Nice and crusty!

mrpotatoheadd

The cap and rays on your coin do not match those on the example shown in Resplandores. Also, the eagle and snake appear to be somewhat different.

pruebas

I think what MrPotatoHead is trying to say is your coin appears counterfeit--and I would agree. Please check the weight, if possible.

tydye

Thanks for the lesson. I can return it the dealer I purchased it from as he is a stand up guy. But I am going to keep it as a reminder. Plus I am only out $30
I have to admit it is very well made and it is silver.

mrpotatoheadd

Here's a scan from Resplandores of an authentic piece:

coinkat

looks to be a contemporary counterfeit- it still could have some value

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>looks to be a contemporary counterfeit- it still could have some value >>



I think this one may have ties to an example in Riddel's. Durango was never my strong mint, but what jumped out at me first were the dentils on the obverse. There are a couple of spots where dentils seem to bulge (between 11 and 12 o'clock and under assayer initials). I assume the edge is third one from the top in your picture? It's always good to compare to examples you already own to see the difference clearly. As you have mentioned weight is off and when you compare it to mrpotatoheadd's picture from Resplandores, you can see quite a few design and legend inconsistencies.

tydye

Yes third from the top.

Is the coin vs medal orientation a give away as well or was that typical?

I was looking into the reference guide and it is pricey. Is there any plans of a re-issue? I like this series but need to learn a little more first about it.

mrpotatoheadd

1826 Do 8Rs were struck medal orientation. The change to coin orientation happened in 1842 in Durango.

tydye

I spoke with the dealer who sold me the 8 R this morning. He wanted to give me my money back like I said. But I am keeping it.

CIVITAS

The coin is a genuine 1826-Do.

mrpotatoheadd

Ok- I apologize for any error in identifying this coin. I have a question for Civitas- in order to add to my knowledge on this series, I'd be interested in hearing about how you identified the coin as genuine. It's been my understanding that the major design elements (such as the cap and eagle) were punched into dies individually, so I would expect that some differences might exist in orientation with regards to legends and such, but the overall design element ought to be consistent from one coin to the next. This led me to suspect the coin in question due to the incuse "LIBERTAD" on the liberty cap and the eagle/snake. On the OP's coin, the vertical stroke of the "T" leans to the right, while on the Resplandores plate coin, it's closer to vertical. The tail of the snake is different, too- on the OP's coin, it curves down right away after coming out of the claw while the Resplandores coin shows the tail coming straight out at a slight incline for a bit before the first bend. Any help you might be able to provide would be appreciated.

TwoKopeiki

I sent my observations and tydye's pics to Bob Gurney (swamperbob) who's been collecting the counterfeits of this series for the last 40 years and his response is below. I love the fact that I learn something new from him every time we "talk". For example, it was news to me that Durango still applied edge in segments during those years. Some interesting information on the Riddell examples, as well. Looks like this is struck from original dies, however specific gravity testing would tell you if it was done outside of the mint. Also looks like you might have a buyer if you wanted to sell.



<< <i>The Riddell # 350 and 351 shares many details in common with an original version of the 1826 Durango. Dunigan notes the existance of multiple eagle punches in 1826 and he is correct. I know of at least 4 and I know Roberto Lozano has been working on the 1826's from Durango for years. There are many eagle varieties that are very scarce. But the mix contains the Riddell 350 and 351 coins that blend right in. The tilted rays, the eagle's head and foot and the arrangement of the cactus pads are all so similar that I am of the opinion that Riddell may have identified a "debased" coin struck from REAL MINT DIES but outside the mint. I have examined several versions of this die pair and I have found two different edge designs in use. One is the typical edge seen on good copies but the second is a poorly applied edge that "wanders" side to side. I believe I see that wandering edge on your copy. The real difference between the Riddell's and the originals is the specific gravity. The Riddells are low in silver content usually 500 fine or less. The color is still good and the weight like yours is close to correct.

The bulge in the dentils is a feature seen on originals - in my opinion Durango was still applying dentils in punch segments in 1826 and they are typically irregular.

Because the similarities between the originals and the debased copies made with original dies - I typically have to buy them at retail. But I would be interested in it to see which type it is. What do you want for it?

Bob >>