Rarity Scale of Mid-grade 1900-1915 Barber Halves Debate.....My top 10 toughest dates
Manorcourtman
Posts: 8,126 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ok Barber half guys a little topic of debate for the weekend. I have now been actively searching for mid-grade Barber halves for a little over 2 years now. I have developed my own rarity scale for the years 1900-1915. It seems to contradict some of the data gathered by the BCCS people. When I say mid-grade I should clearly state grades of VF-XF. I have come up with my own list of the toughest dates to find, problem free and in VF-XF grades. It is based on personal experience and population reports from the big two. Remember I am talking about the years 1900-1915. I would be interested to here other Barber fanatic opinions. Here's my opinion on the toughest dates to find in VF-XF:
#1 - 1902-S
#2 - 1905-O
#3 - 1901-S
#4 - 1907-S
#5 - 1906-S
#6 - 1904-O
#7 - 1911-D
#8 - 1901-O
#9 - 1908-S
#10 - 1910
I give special consideration to 1913, 1914 and 1915 Philly dates but they do not make my list, nor does the 1904-s which seems to be more readily available due to the fact it's a high dollar coin and more seem to have hit the hot Barber market in the last year or so. What's your opinions??
#1 - 1902-S
#2 - 1905-O
#3 - 1901-S
#4 - 1907-S
#5 - 1906-S
#6 - 1904-O
#7 - 1911-D
#8 - 1901-O
#9 - 1908-S
#10 - 1910
I give special consideration to 1913, 1914 and 1915 Philly dates but they do not make my list, nor does the 1904-s which seems to be more readily available due to the fact it's a high dollar coin and more seem to have hit the hot Barber market in the last year or so. What's your opinions??
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Comments
<< <i>I'm not an exclusive Barber collector, but I did pick up a 1902-S several years ago, VF-XF (still in my core collection) and I agree with you it's a tough date to find with any kind of eye appeal. It's a raw coin that I think is original, but when I look up coin values it seems as though the price guides haven't accounted for just how tough a date it is. >>
Price guides are totally lost, especially for the 02-S. In July a PCGS XF45 sold for $1400+. HA Sale in 7/10 Previous to that you have to go back to 2003 for another PCGS graded XF example. They don't have any records for one in vf.
Not sure that I understand an XF 45 1902-S going for $1400 but it seems a $1000 too high to me.
It looks like the only one way out there on price - maybe two people were bidding on it for their XF 45 sets.
There is a VF 20 1902-S on Heritage right now and a VF35(??) 1911-D.
Good luck
#1 - 1905-O
#2 - 1901-S
#3 - 1904-O
#4 - 1902-S
#5 - 1907-S
#6 - 1904-S
#7 - 1908-S
#8 - 1901-O
#9 - 1913
#10 - 1910
I've seen WAY too many 1904-S examples that are holdered as problem-free but are NOT problem-free. Same goes for the 1905-O.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Try finding a nice 13-P in upper end VF or XF, it's not so easy. See, the 38-D Walkers were saved from day 1, that's why Unc ones are all over the place. 13, 14 and 15 P-Mint Barber Halves were saved en masse, but this only started once they had been in circulation for at least 15 years or so, giving them lots of time to wear down heavily.
But as usual, if you go by the price guides those are the "rare" coins. HA!
If you're talking VF, then IMO the king of 20th century Barber Halves is the 05-O, as far as rarity goes. XF? Things do change a bit there...... I put my set together in VF, with a smattering of XF coins.
The S-Mint coins are tough, but IMO...
05-O
07-S
13-P
02-S
01-S
04-O
05-P
10-P
14-P
15-P
Of course, YMMV. I was lucky enough to stumble into a very nice VF25 05-O early on in my hunt.
Camelot
Did Barber coins wear faster than other series? I've often wondered why mid-grade Barbers are so scarce and valuable, relatively speaking.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i><< Try finding a nice 13-P in upper end VF or XF, it's not so easy. See, the 38-D Walkers were saved from day 1, that's why Unc ones are all over the place. 13, 14 and 15 P-Mint Barber Halves were saved en masse, but this only started once they had been in circulation for at least 15 years or so, giving them lots of time to wear down heavily. >>
Did Barber coins wear faster than other series? I've often wondered why mid-grade Barbers are so scarce and valuable, relatively speaking. >>
Fifty cents back 100 or so years ago bought a lot. I found one of my ancestors' rent receipts from the 1890's and it was $8 per month for a half a house. Probably more than 99% of people couldn't afford to hold onto a Barber half. So there tend to be some uncs, a lot of Goods and lower, but not much in-between.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i><< Try finding a nice 13-P in upper end VF or XF, it's not so easy. See, the 38-D Walkers were saved from day 1, that's why Unc ones are all over the place. 13, 14 and 15 P-Mint Barber Halves were saved en masse, but this only started once they had been in circulation for at least 15 years or so, giving them lots of time to wear down heavily. >>
Did Barber coins wear faster than other series? I've often wondered why mid-grade Barbers are so scarce and valuable, relatively speaking. >>
Half dollars were the work horse, so to speak, of their time. They circulated and circulated and circulated!! The avg. grade Barber half is probably AG to G. I believe also many of the mid-grade Barbers were melted when silver hit $50 an ounce but that's just my opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i><< Try finding a nice 13-P in upper end VF or XF, it's not so easy. See, the 38-D Walkers were saved from day 1, that's why Unc ones are all over the place. 13, 14 and 15 P-Mint Barber Halves were saved en masse, but this only started once they had been in circulation for at least 15 years or so, giving them lots of time to wear down heavily. >>
Did Barber coins wear faster than other series? I've often wondered why mid-grade Barbers are so scarce and valuable, relatively speaking. >>
Half dollars were the work horse, so to speak, of their time. They circulated and circulated and circulated!! The avg. grade Barber half is probably AG to G. I believe also many of the mid-grade Barbers were melted when silver hit $50 an ounce but that's just my opinion. >>
David Lange's book on the history of coin boards provides the best reason for the lack of mid-grade (choice Fine to AU) Barber Halves I have yet to hear... and it follows manorcourtman's logic...
Prior to the coin boards introduction during the late 20's and early 30's ( i think that date range is accurate)... most, if not all, collectors only wanted Mint State coins... any wear and back into circulation... then when the coin boards were first introduced, along with the caption at the top "Fill me if you can" ... everyday folks started to hunt through their change to save coins and fill those holes... but by then, most Barber halves had been in circulation quite a few years and (as already stated by others in this thread) had been the workhorse coin... and they did get a workout... by then, most were very worn down... then throw in the unfortunate habit of many folks, to clean their coins before putting them into the albums... that about sums up the state of Barber halves today... and why the dear premium for problem-free choice circ coins in F+ to AU...
As for the prices... there are those who understand and appreciate the disparate pricing that has no relationship to any price guides... they will "step up to the plate" ... but the general collecting public is hesitant... the main reason is that they are afraid of not being able to recover their outlay upon resale... I believe that if the price guides were more in step with the actual realixed prices on these coins, that more folks might be willing to step up to the plate... yet that might not be a good thing... they are hard enough to find as it is...
Same applies to many Seated coins... such as CC quarters and Halves along with other "sleeper" keys...
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
1) PCGS's current "VF20-30" grading -- Strong fines and weak VF's
01-S
02-S
05-O
01-O
07-S
13-P
04-S (higher prices bringing the coin to market)
04-O
06-S
08-S / 03-P tied
True VF30-XF45
01-S
01-O
02-S
04-O / 05-O tied
04-S (higher prices bringing the coin to market)
13-P
07-S
06-S
10-P / 05-P
08-S
Five toughest P mints from 1900-1915
1913
1910
1905
1903
1908 tied with the 1914 in VF30 or higher.
The most overrated and available coin of the whole Barber series; the 1915 in grades up to VF30. Its runner up is the 1914.
Ultimately, it is partly relative from collector to collector.
Tyler
The # 1 all time toughest VF/XF date from 1900 - to - 1915 is Hands Down the 1905-O.
Next in # 2 is my nemisis date ... the 1901-S
# 3 has to be the 1902-S...
and here's the one I just consigned to Ponyexpress8
These are the original seller's scans. I believe that BluCCphotos has taken new images.
#4 - 1901-O
#5 - 1904-O
#6 - 1904-S
#7 - 1907-S - 1908-S [ tie ]
#8 - 1906-S
#9 - 1910-P
#10 -1913-P
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#1 - 1905-O
#2 - 1907-S
#3 - 1902-S
#4 - 1901-S
#5 - 1906-S
#6 - 1901-O
#7 - 1902-O
#8 - 1908-S
#9 - 1910
#10-1904-O
P Mints: Of the 1913 - 1915 P Mints I have the toughest time finding 1914's. 1915's are the most available, with 1913's about 1/3rd as available. 1914's for me are half again as frequent as 1913's. I have a much tougher time finding 1910's then the last 3 Philly coins with 1903-1906's not all the plentiful either. It would also be my suggestion that 1913-1915's be carefully inspected as I have seen a lot of mint marked coins with a removed mintmark.
You could place my top 3 in the list very close to each other. The 1904-S was up there but as mentioned previously a few more have become available over the past 2 years. Still a tough coin though.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
You really put some awesome Barbers up on ebaY in the magical midgrade ranges! I only collected them hard for about 6 years in VF-XF, a few F12s and few XF45s, but eventually focused on VF30-XF40, but the look more than the number.
I admire MrBreeze's attempt at a strict VF35 set. He is going to have to make a 1897-P in VF35, last time I looked at the pop report there was a big fat ZERO there. Hey, it must so common that no one is sending them in, right?
USCGCraig (Petersen) would put the 1905 P down for #1 difficulty in XF45, wouldn't he? That was quite a saga. Craig collected data from ebay and major auction sites on ALL Barber half issues for several years and gave the data out for free. It really helped in putting bids because the 'sheet' is worthless like Larry says above. I hope Craig is doing alright out there in Wash state.
Like ARCO I would say the low VFs are in a different category than choice VF-XF45, but both strata still challenging. I remember when Dan Flood snagged a 1915 P in XF from JJT and pop report was very low single digits or possibly 0. But 1915 P in VF20-30 is not nearly as difficult.
I also remember when the 1911 S in XF40 was 0 at PCGS and I had the first 2, so I guess if you asked about 2 or 3 years ago I would have said that date.
Like MFH, my nemesis was the 05-O, then 02-S, after that, pretty much what the rest of y'all said. That 01-O in the BCCS survey will shock you in VF. I sold my VF25; that one I do miss a little bit
That 04-O will test you, trying to find one not struck like mush in VF or a true XF.
Also like ARCO said, the relativity issue or as I think he once termed it: "geographic distribution" can make one issue that is normally quite tough, seem easy to another, and vice versa. My first coin show score (of only 3 of my 71 top Barbers) was the 1908-S. PCGS said VF35 and I paid sheet VF bid for it raw in 2004.
Thanks for a great thread--I do miss 'Barber talk', nothing in the world like it!
Don
Like Don stated, you definitely have to factor in grade for the mid-grades. As an example, the 1915 in VG are more common than beanie babies and are everywhere. I think JJteaparty has 60 of them for sale. Do a search on Ebay and there will be 300 of them, yet, sellers want $100+ for them?? In Fine, a nice example is available about once a week, a VF about once every month (JJ teaparty has three). However, in XF or AU? Now, the 1915 has just entered the super scarce dead zone. Give yourself about 5 years to see a beautiful original XF (I have never owned one), Ditto the 1913 and 1914.
Fine compared to VF20 are pretty close in relative scarcity. VF20 compared to VF30 coins are about 2:1 or 3:1, and VF20 to XF40 are probably 5:1. How scarce is that totally original XF45 that is uncleaned, attractively toned and natural looking? Compared to a barely there VF20, probably 20:1. So, if there is a date that hardly shows up in Fine, you can bet that in XF45, you won't be seeing it much (like the 02-S).
However, like Mike stated, the 05-O is a killer, but it isn't for me, because I found one early.
Tyler
Many of you remember that Craig Peterson had a real problem locating
a 1905-P in XF 45 in a PCGS holder.
Here is the coin he cracked out and sent into PCGS where he finally got his 45:
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Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
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I still love my 05-O in PC35 and I still think the 07-s is vastly over rated even though I wouldn't automatically sell my PC45 for the Grand they seem to be asking for them now.
Still think maybe the 01-O is king, fully struck even more so.
In my former life I said something to the effect of...
<< <i>#1 - 1905-O
#2 - 1901-S
#3 - 1904-O
#4 - 1902-S
#5 - 1907-S
#6 - 1904-S
#7 - 1908-S
#8 - 1901-O
#9 - 1913
#10 - 1910 >>
Another year of searching and collecting and discussing with other Barber fanatics has made me rethink my Top 10 slightly. The more I've experienced and thought deeply about it, I now lean toward the following rankings. Keep in mind that my thoughts are not based on the entire mid-grade spectrum of F12-AU58. As others have correctly noted, this list would be slightly different depending on what "sub-range" within mid-grades you choose to focus on. My list is based on VF30-XF45 with a particular "look" to them. Sure, I can find some of the dates on my list more readily than a Top 10 List might initially warrant. But I'm talking about coins with "The Look" as we Barber fanatics call it. Original, pleasantly toned, not hairlined to death or dipped out dull shiny silver looking... coins I would consider "acceptible" for my collection.
#1 - 1905-O. Hands down, and it's not even close. In the nearly decade and a half of my focusing on mid-grade Barbers and assembling four sets of them, I've owned a grand total of one example IN ANY GRADE I've truly loved - my current XF40 (ex Hayes, ex Dudzik).
#2 - 1901-S. A recognized toughie, this date is always hard to locate with the right appearance. Note to casual collectors: stop DIPPING this date!
#3 - 1904-O. As Don said previously, try to find one that doesn't have a mushy strike. Also, good luck finding one without a dull, lifeless silvery appearance.
#4 - 1906-S. A new addition to my list, and I can't believe I left it off the last time. A HUGELY underrated date. Look at the PCGS POPS if you don't believe me. Only 20 total coins graded in the VF30-XF45 range (only 9 more in VF20-VF25).
#5 - 1901-O. Another extremely tough date to find nice, and a favorite of many Barber guys. I've only ever owned one example that I've really loved (my current XF40).
#6 - 1902-S. As Chris and others have noted, this date is underrated and extremely difficult to find untampered with. I've owned two primo examples - the VF35 coin Chris originally posted, and the XF40 that Steve posted (which I own now).
#7 - 1908-S. Another often overlooked date in the series, and one of the few S mints for which it is altogether not uncommon to see a bad strike. Just finding one is tough enough, let alone finding one with the right look that is well struck.
#8 - 1909-O. Another new addition to my list. I see VF25 examples from time to time, but rarely one in VF30-XF45 - especially one I would like to have in my set. My current coin is a VF30. Are there nice VF35-XF45 examples out there??
#9 - 1904-S. I'm still including this date because despite the high POPS I rarely see a VF30-XF45 coin offered that I like the appearance of. Many of the slabbed coins I've seen just look downright nasty!
#10 - 1902-O. Another new addition for me. This is the weakest strike date in the entire series bar none. Try to find one well struck. Now try to find a well-struck example that has a nice appearance.
Honorable Mention - 1905. PCGS POPS say only 24 coins have been graded VF30-XF45, and I've only ever owned two decent examples (including my current XF40).
<< <i>The 1911-D and 1910 would not make my list. The others are R-4s and R-5s which are harder to find.
Not sure that I understand an XF 45 1902-S going for $1400 but it seems a $1000 too high to me.
It looks like the only one way out there on price - maybe two people were bidding on it for their XF 45 sets. >>
It has been a couple of years but the 1902-S I found was about $1000 less and was in a higher grade.
In early dates I looked for a VF 96-S so long, I finally had to settle for a 58.
Things seem never to change even though change is all around us.
I was sort of "down in the dumps" after my sets sold last August and
while I was at the Pittsburgh ANA helping Glenn out. I spotted a baker's
dozen PCGS mid grade Halves - and we were off to the races again.
I have the Dansco almost 3/4 full and am pleased with the progress I've made.
I can no longer say that the 05-O was the toughest one to find this go-around;
I was offered one in PCGS 25 [ out of the Blue, I might add, from HA's placement
service... forgot I even had a want list there !! ] That was the impulsion to start
the latest set.
I have 22 coins left to complete this set, when I get down to 10 - I'll have a different
list to think upon. I would have more coins today if I had actually won some very
strong bids on another four I wanted at Heritage... but my good friend Cary advised me
that some dealers were really hot on my short list. Good, I made them pay for the
privilege of outbidding me.
Happy Hunting everyone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
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<< <i>I'm far from an expert but I think the 05 should be higher up that list.
In early dates I looked for a VF 96-S so long, I finally had to settle for a 58.
Leon,
Ok, now I feel bad for you,
I have a great looking 1896-S in VF 30;
want to give up my old AU 58 ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases