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Someone please explain 4_sharp_corners to me!!!!

How does this business model work? Does he train Chinese kids to grade raw cards!! Where is he buying all this unopened stuff to grade? What kind of discount does PSA give this kind of volume? Someone please explain this to me!!!!!!

JBox

Comments

  • I'll throw in my two cents worth - I have bought many items from 4sc over the past few years and have always been very satisfied. They have never messed up an order. Obviously, they need to receive some pretty good discounts from PSA in order to make things work but given the volume they provide, that would make sense. I have no idea where they get their raw items but I imagine they are big buyers at the various auctions. My one concern is that I also buy items from NESC, which seems to be their 'sister' company. I am always a little wary that the items are the rejects that 4sc did not send into PSA. This is just my opinion, however. I do not know if this is accurate. Overall, I think they do a great job. I like how they run reverse auctions, starting at a certain point and dropping the starting bid if it does not sell. I'm sure you will receive lots of comments on this.
  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    anyone have any links to their auctions??? so I can satisfy my curiosity...don't know if I've bought anything from them.... thanks al.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,562 ✭✭✭✭
    NESC is indeed their dumping grounds for items that didn't grade out or weren't sent in for grading.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭
    PSA does make deals for [steeply] discounted grading if a minimum number of cards are submitted on a periodic basis [e.g. think 5,000 cards a month for 6 months, or whatever]. You can also arrange so that cards are only slabbed if a certain minimum grade is met.

    They are one of the few that have been working this business model for a long time and have made it work (well) for themselves. Process management is the key on the Ops. side and efficient buying on the sales side.

    CrazySC [Solomon] used to do pretty well. Daryl from DSLSports seems to do okay, too, although DSL seems to have taken a few respites over the years.
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • jivanjivan Posts: 1,009


    << <i>How does this business model work? Does he train Chinese kids to grade raw cards!! Where is he buying all this unopened stuff to grade? What kind of discount does PSA give this kind of volume? Someone please explain this to me!!!!!!

    JBox >>

    WHY NOT WRITE TO THEM AND ASK ????
    always looking for 1969 graded basketball
  • Al -
    Below are a couple of links: (Hope they work)

    This was the second or third time that the Orr was auctioned. Someone just bought it at $225 but it had been listed at maybe $300(?) the first time. Someone has bid on the Roberts which started at $300.

    1968 Topps Hockey

    1968 Hockey Orr

    These are the higher priced examples. They actually sell a ton of graded cards in the $3 range as well. I have bought a lot of 1976 Topps Football and 1980 Topps basketball.

    If you like basketball, here is a PSA 10 Kevin Kunnert that they have been unable to sell. This started at maybe $100(?) four or five weeks ago. It didn't sell at $15 and is now starting at $10.

    1975 Kunnert PSA 10

    Hope this helps. - Kevin

  • I deal with them all the time. Much cheaper buying than raw and grading myself for commons. Name players are market price. I collect a lot of years and am patient and pick up bargains most of the time. Service is excellent.
  • cadets68cadets68 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭
    I have bought from them over 10 times. Always fast. Shipping is a little high. But card prices get lower every time an auction fails.

    They are a great place to pick up cards for a set. The have commons to stars,.

    How do I say this - they seem to get some pretty nice grades on some of their cards. Not sure how much the volume "helps" them.

    Shawn
    After those four National League games, Gorman Thomas was never the same, and neither were the Brewers, and come to think of it neither was I.

    Josh Wilker - Cardboard Gods
  • KK Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭
    I've bought from them at least 50 times and never had a problem. Rest assured they are legit.
  • DialjDialj Posts: 1,636 ✭✭
    I have purchased over 100 cards from them for different sets. I have alway been satisfied with their prices and shippng. Not one problem with them EVER!!!
    "A full mind is an empty bat." Ty Cobb

    Currently collecting 1934 Butterfinger, 1969 Nabisco, 1991 Topps Desert Shield (in PSA 9 or 10), and 1990 Donruss Learning Series (in PSA 10).
  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Kevin for the links....will check them out later today. ....al.
  • jboxjbox Posts: 408 ✭✭
    Somehow this has turned into "Is 4SC legit?" thread. I've bought quite a few things from them and have been really pleased. I was just more curious if anyone had any insight into what this kind of operation looks like with that kind of volume going through. I do agree that they seem to get some iffy cards through as 10's.

    JBox
  • cougar701cougar701 Posts: 544 ✭✭✭


    ...I do agree that they seem to get some iffy cards through as 10's.

    And here lies the core of any potential complaint some would have with this business model. It could be argued that the same card 4SC could get a PSA 10 out of, we may only get a PSA 9 based on the fact that we do not do the incredible amount of volume or consistent business with PSA as they.

    I personally would have no proof that PSA services/grades are directly or indirectly influenced by the business relationships they maintain, but to look around at the rest of the free market system for similar examples...in which there would be plenty. I think this in an of itself drives us to speculate...

    On the flip side, has Joe himself ever commented on this type of perception for us to have a stronger basis for assuming innocense on PSA's part? Does anyone know for certain the grading process internally at PSA that would eliminate any perceived doubts of unbiased grading? Has anyone looked at the overall data and percentage of populations over time since these business have come into existance? Wouldn't the population of 9's and 10's be exploding based on the volume of cards they have submitted over the years?


    By the way, what kind of bankroll does a company have to have to buy up this much raw and/or unopened boxes/cases?
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭


    << <i>...I do agree that they seem to get some iffy cards through as 10's.

    By the way, what kind of bankroll does a company have to have to buy up this much raw and/or unopened boxes/cases? >>



    Probably much lower than BBCE, Dave & Adam's, and even some of the Auction Houses. I imagine that with $200K - $250K would be more than sufficient to build a scaled operation like this -- and then it is about managing the cash flow and inventory.
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • lbcoach20lbcoach20 Posts: 868 ✭✭✭
    I've bought from them many times and have been very pleased overall. I even had an issue with a lost package and they were very good to work with.
  • 19541954 Posts: 2,866 ✭✭✭
    At the National this year 4SC's was running around the show before the public got in buying all the sets that they could find. They have dealers that hold the sets for them so they can view them before they sell to the others is one way they get their material.


    Shane
    Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    They have a great business model and seem to do very well with it.

    They get lots of marginal 10's simply because they submit so many cards.


    Plus they submit plenty of cards (if ya know what I mean)

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • jboxjbox Posts: 408 ✭✭


    << <i>At the National this year 4SC's was running around the show before the public got in buying all the sets that they could find. They have dealers that hold the sets for them so they can view them before they sell to the others is one way they get their material.


    Shane >>




    Now this is the kind of stuff I find interesting!
  • JMDVMJMDVM Posts: 950 ✭✭✭


    << <i>...I do agree that they seem to get some iffy cards through as 10's.

    And here lies the core of any potential complaint some would have with this business model. It could be argued that the same card 4SC could get a PSA 10 out of, we may only get a PSA 9 based on the fact that we do not do the incredible amount of volume or consistent business with PSA as they.

    I personally would have no proof that PSA services/grades are directly or indirectly influenced by the business relationships they maintain, but to look around at the rest of the free market system for similar examples...in which there would be plenty. I think this in an of itself drives us to speculate...

    On the flip side, has Joe himself ever commented on this type of perception for us to have a stronger basis for assuming innocense on PSA's part? Does anyone know for certain the grading process internally at PSA that would eliminate any perceived doubts of unbiased grading? Has anyone looked at the overall data and percentage of populations over time since these business have come into existance? Wouldn't the population of 9's and 10's be exploding based on the volume of cards they have submitted over the years?


    By the way, what kind of bankroll does a company have to have to buy up this much raw and/or unopened boxes/cases? >>



    In theory, the graders are not suppose to know the identity of the person/company submitting the order....if true (ha!), would the grader not know when a multi-thousand card submission falls on their desk that its from 4SC just by common sense? Who else would submit such huge orders? Anyway, I do a lot of buying from 4SC and they are terrific.
  • hammeredhammered Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭
    Graders don't know which orders belong to whom, and even if they did, they'd have very little incentive to toss gimme grades to those big submitters.
    PSA might like the biz the big subbers send in, but I doubt that the graders themselves give a rat's as*

  • macboubemacboube Posts: 336 ✭✭
    In theory, the graders are not suppose to know the identity of the person/company submitting the order....if true (ha!), would the grader not know when a multi-thousand card submission falls on their desk that its from 4SC just by common sense? Who else would submit such huge orders? Anyway, I do a lot of buying from 4SC and they are terrific.

    This is a completely plausible statement. Well stated!
  • jivanjivan Posts: 1,009
    so now i hope that you have comprehended what 4sc is...
    always looking for 1969 graded basketball
  • cougar701cougar701 Posts: 544 ✭✭✭
    I think they are what Captain Kirk was referring to as 'The Providers' in a Star Trek episode I watched once...


    Anyway, in all seriousness. I looked over their inventory of cards for sale. I see many cards that they thought were worthy of subbing and truly are very nice. These are cards that any of us would have perhaps submitted ourselves and got basically the same grades they got which are all over the board. I see very few 10's on cards that are tough to get a 10 and also saw stuff as low as a 7 that I'm sure we would have been scratching our heads about. Basically, I think the grading for these guys is on the up and up based on what I have observed in their inventory. I think the attraction for them to use PSA is a heck of a pricing deal based on volumes of cards submitted...so much so that, how can they complain when PSA grades it like they see it regardless of who is subbing it. PSA is the unarguable front runner in grading and their label fetches the most money...as long as that is the case and the discount to grade cards is deep enough, 4SC takes the bad with the good and accepts that sometimes they kick and sometimes they get kicked(ya, thats right, I just gave you an INXS reference). At the end of the day, the material they open and sub is pristine and earns its own grades.

  • ArchaninatorArchaninator Posts: 822 ✭✭✭
    I just wish their customer service was as nice as some as the cards they sell. Their pricing strategy is interesting too! If something does not sell, it is lowered again and again, until it eventually sells, week after week. Knowing this pricing strategy has enabled me to wait patiently, eventually snagging some fantastic deals. Plus, in many cases, they have multiple cards in the same grade. I still purchase from 4SC but their customer service is for sure close to the worst. One example, I requested combined shipping 4 or 5 times (via eBay and email) with no response. Then they finally reply by sending several non paying bidders. Things like this should NEVER happen!
  • fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 4,109 ✭✭✭
    I just bought 16 PSA 8s 1975 Topps for $50.I have paid more for raw.
    Tony(AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER ME)
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