Options
~ Post your pre 1964 dated Fantasy Restrikes ~
Broadstruck
Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
As the story goes Montroville W. Dickeson obtained a pair of dies created by early mint employee Adam Eckfeldt. These dies were never used for coinage or pattern purposes, and were assuredly sold as scrap metal by the Mint. Dickeson apparently believed the die was connected with the 1792 Getz or Birch cents. Dickeson thereby had a reverse die made which read "TRIAL PIECE/DESIGNED FOR/UNITED STATES/CENT./1792." and struck his tokens. The dies where actually not for the 1792 Cent as Dickeson believed but embossing dies for stamping revenue paper in 1816.
These are also listed in the Judd US Pattern book, along with a bit of info on www.USPatterns.com
It's NGC MS63BN lots of red present with a nice overcast of blue patina. The obverse has a few die cracks and is a bit hard as it was struck from rusted dies, whereas the reverse is somewhat proof-like. It's 1 of possibly 6 known and just another final frontiers of numismatics esoteric item that fits my collection well.
I first read about them when I received a copy of Breen's Encyclopedia in the late 80's and have followed them on and off since. Upon researching although the Breen 1380 variety with the Eagle perched on a half shell or rock has been available within the last decade alone on a few occasions. I have not seen this Eagle wings spread on a shield Breen 1381 variety cross any major coin auction since the Abe Kosoff era.
A bit more info on Montroville Dickeson from a Stack's QDB blog-
Among our favorite “characters” in 19th century numismatics is Montroville W. Dickeson, M.D. We have mentioned him a number of times over the years in various studies, including in the book, American Numismatics before the Civil War. However, he remains generally unknown to most numismatists today, and is absent from the ANA Hall of Fame.
As were many other important figures early in our hobby, Dickeson was a man of many interests—multi-tasking we would say today, but with regard to different pursuits. While he was a numismatist, Dickeson was also a medical doctor, an archaeologist, an expert in Indian culture, and a Philadelphia landlord (one of his tenants was E.B. Mason, Jr., the coin collector). Today, Dickeson is probably better remembered for his excavation of Indian mounds in the prairie states, than he is for his numismatic contributions.
In the realm of coin collecting, his American Numismatical Manual, published by Lippincott in 1859, was large in size, comprehensive in scope, and illustrated in color (with tinted, embossed plates). At this time there was very little for Dickeson to draw upon in the way of earlier published information. An Historical Account of American Coinage, by John Hickox had been published in 1858, but only in an edition of 205 copies, mainly to historical societies, and of a very small size. Other than that, nothing, except for some scattered auction catalogues, treatises on medals, and Joseph B. Felt’s 1839 book on coin and paper money of Massachusetts.
Dickeson made some assumptions, some of which are humorous today. For example, he suggested that the letter C on the reverse of a gold coin meant that it was made in California. Today, we all know that the letter signifies the Charlotte Mint. Some coins that we know are rare today were listed without comment, and others he called rare are now thought to be, if not common, at least only scarce. Still, in the main, the reading of the American Numismatical Manualis very educational and informative. Some related discussion of this appears in our current “Spotlight” feature on our Website. The book went through subsequent editions in 1860 and 1865, at which time the title appeared slightly differently as American Numismatic Manual. As the coin hobby had started in a large way in 1857 and 1858, terminology was still in a state of flux. What we now call numismatics in 2007 was often called numismatology in the late 1850s. We use the adjective numismatic to describe something, such as a numismatic book, but numismatical was certainly not out of keeping with practice in 1859. Dickeson died on April 14, 1882, at the age of 69.
Today, it is easy enough to become acquainted with Dickeson and his book by submitting a “want list” to any leading dealer in out of print numismatic publications or, for that matter, searching on the Internet. The original press runs for the three editions must have comprised many thousands of copies. The typical example encountered is apt to have clean contents, but with the brown cloth cover sometimes scuffed or a bit loose. Such a book is an excellent addition to a numismatic library.
These are also listed in the Judd US Pattern book, along with a bit of info on www.USPatterns.com
It's NGC MS63BN lots of red present with a nice overcast of blue patina. The obverse has a few die cracks and is a bit hard as it was struck from rusted dies, whereas the reverse is somewhat proof-like. It's 1 of possibly 6 known and just another final frontiers of numismatics esoteric item that fits my collection well.
I first read about them when I received a copy of Breen's Encyclopedia in the late 80's and have followed them on and off since. Upon researching although the Breen 1380 variety with the Eagle perched on a half shell or rock has been available within the last decade alone on a few occasions. I have not seen this Eagle wings spread on a shield Breen 1381 variety cross any major coin auction since the Abe Kosoff era.
A bit more info on Montroville Dickeson from a Stack's QDB blog-
Among our favorite “characters” in 19th century numismatics is Montroville W. Dickeson, M.D. We have mentioned him a number of times over the years in various studies, including in the book, American Numismatics before the Civil War. However, he remains generally unknown to most numismatists today, and is absent from the ANA Hall of Fame.
As were many other important figures early in our hobby, Dickeson was a man of many interests—multi-tasking we would say today, but with regard to different pursuits. While he was a numismatist, Dickeson was also a medical doctor, an archaeologist, an expert in Indian culture, and a Philadelphia landlord (one of his tenants was E.B. Mason, Jr., the coin collector). Today, Dickeson is probably better remembered for his excavation of Indian mounds in the prairie states, than he is for his numismatic contributions.
In the realm of coin collecting, his American Numismatical Manual, published by Lippincott in 1859, was large in size, comprehensive in scope, and illustrated in color (with tinted, embossed plates). At this time there was very little for Dickeson to draw upon in the way of earlier published information. An Historical Account of American Coinage, by John Hickox had been published in 1858, but only in an edition of 205 copies, mainly to historical societies, and of a very small size. Other than that, nothing, except for some scattered auction catalogues, treatises on medals, and Joseph B. Felt’s 1839 book on coin and paper money of Massachusetts.
Dickeson made some assumptions, some of which are humorous today. For example, he suggested that the letter C on the reverse of a gold coin meant that it was made in California. Today, we all know that the letter signifies the Charlotte Mint. Some coins that we know are rare today were listed without comment, and others he called rare are now thought to be, if not common, at least only scarce. Still, in the main, the reading of the American Numismatical Manualis very educational and informative. Some related discussion of this appears in our current “Spotlight” feature on our Website. The book went through subsequent editions in 1860 and 1865, at which time the title appeared slightly differently as American Numismatic Manual. As the coin hobby had started in a large way in 1857 and 1858, terminology was still in a state of flux. What we now call numismatics in 2007 was often called numismatology in the late 1850s. We use the adjective numismatic to describe something, such as a numismatic book, but numismatical was certainly not out of keeping with practice in 1859. Dickeson died on April 14, 1882, at the age of 69.
Today, it is easy enough to become acquainted with Dickeson and his book by submitting a “want list” to any leading dealer in out of print numismatic publications or, for that matter, searching on the Internet. The original press runs for the three editions must have comprised many thousands of copies. The typical example encountered is apt to have clean contents, but with the brown cloth cover sometimes scuffed or a bit loose. Such a book is an excellent addition to a numismatic library.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
0
Comments
Can't it be argued it is a counterfeit?
HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT DANIEL CARR DID?
The 1804 restrike cent was produced around 1860, possibly by Joseph Mickley, from dies sold as scrap metal by the Mint. The dies were retooled because they were rusted, the obverse 1804 date was altered from 1803, and the reverse was that an 1820 cent. Though of interest as a curiosity, these generally poor quality restrikes do not carry the same value as the official Mint-produced pieces.
<< <i>Why did PCGS slab that private restrike? It's not a US coin is it?
Can't it be argued it is a counterfeit?
The 1804 restikes were are a privately minted concoction from around 1860 from the original dies of the 1803 large cent to meet demand of collectors at the time.
The dies were clearly quite rusted but that did not deter the minters of the time.
While not a mint issued product, these coins have become desirable by collectors and have a listing in the Redbook for many years.
In most cases if it's in Redbook then PCGS will slab it.
Absolutely wonderful and very informative write up
I happen to not be able to sleep last night
and was doing some searching around the net
and ran across two copies of the The American Numismatical manual's
for years 1859 and1860 I did a quick look through them and
love the hand drawn plates. I cannot wait to sink my teeth into them.
Below are the links to both versions.
Terry
The American Numismatical Manual 1859
The American Numismatical Manual 1860
<< <i>Fantastic coin notwilight. I have heard of them, but never seen one. Thanks for showing that one.
Thanks. Interesting story about this coin. I stumbled upon it at long beach a year or two ago. I went up to Laura's (Legend's) table and started chatting. It quickly came out that she had left (it was sunday) and the guy there was not affiliated with Legend but was just using the table space. I thought it was pretty clever of him to grab the big name spot but he did not try to pretend he was someone he wasn't.
He had a good price on this piece which looks much better in hand than in the photo so I bought it.
--Jerry
<< <i>Broadtruck,
Absolutely wonderful and very informative write up
I happen to not be able to sleep last night
and was doing some searching around the net
and ran across two copies of the The American Numismatical manual's
for years 1859 and1860 I did a quick look through them and
love the hand drawn plates. I cannot wait to sink my teeth into them.
Below are the links to both versions.
Terry
The American Numismatical Manual 1859
The American Numismatical Manual 1860 >>
Wow thanks Stew as look forward to glancing at these links now as I have not been able to locate either book.
Here is the information from the ANR Numismatic Rarities The Drew St. John Sale.
"1792" (i.e. 1860-1870) "trial cent" fantasy. Judd Appendix A, Pollock-6001, Breen-1378. MS-64 RB (NGC)."
The finest example of this fascinating 19th century concoction we have seen, pedigreed to 1905. Choice lustrous light brown with abundant mint red framing all legends and devices and encircling the greater portion of the peripheries. Well struck and attractive, natural planchet striations at base of reverse, tiny areas of corrosion noted just inside the rim at 6:00 on the obverse and above ES of STATES on the reverse. Interestingly, when the Chapman's catalogued this precise piece in 1905, they noted that it was struck about 1870, while most current speculation places it about a decade earlier, closer to the 1859 publication of Dr. Dickeson's magnum opus, the American Numismatical Manual. Of course, though Dickeson's career as an adventurer, student of Native American artifacts, showman and promoter are well-documented, there is no great paper trail surrounding this unusual numismatic production. Most assume today that the heavily rusted eagle motif was produced to emboss revenue-stamped fiscal paper sometime before 1817, but Dickeson thought it probable that it was produced as a 1792 pattern cent, thus his creation of this interesting piece. Fewer than two dozen examples are generally thought to exist (uspatterns.com suggests only a dozen known), though we can remember no finer specimen than the piece offered here.
From S.H. and Henry Chapman's sale of the J.F. McCabe Collection, June 1905, Lot 68; John M. Clapp to John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate to Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. in 1942; Bowers and Merena's sale of the Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection, May 1996, Lot 111 (at $4,400).
Ran across one other cool little thing also
This page comes from a 66 page ledger book
that I found called "Information respecting United States bond paper currency coin production 1896"
Trying to find a way to store it on a site like photobucket that will hold PDF files.
I was able to extract a cool page as a photo so far. it would take forever to do the whole book. Hope you enjoy.
Terry
Page 15
<< <i>Isn't "fantasy restrike" an oxymoron? If a coin is a restrike it cannot, by definition be a fantasy. Am I wrong in this? >>
Well no.
Unless, it is a restrike of an existing and authentic planchet of the series to an issue that never existed. So it would be a restrike of a planchet to create a fantasy issue.
<< <i>This may not be considered registry material but is even better in my view. I got this fantasy piece for $3,220 in 2005 when ANR was around. It sold in the Eliasberg sale for $4,400 14 years ago.
Here is the information from the ANR Numismatic Rarities The Drew St. John Sale.
"1792" (i.e. 1860-1870) "trial cent" fantasy. Judd Appendix A, Pollock-6001, Breen-1378. MS-64 RB (NGC)."
The finest example of this fascinating 19th century concoction we have seen, pedigreed to 1905. Choice lustrous light brown with abundant mint red framing all legends and devices and encircling the greater portion of the peripheries. Well struck and attractive, natural planchet striations at base of reverse, tiny areas of corrosion noted just inside the rim at 6:00 on the obverse and above ES of STATES on the reverse. Interestingly, when the Chapman's catalogued this precise piece in 1905, they noted that it was struck about 1870, while most current speculation places it about a decade earlier, closer to the 1859 publication of Dr. Dickeson's magnum opus, the American Numismatical Manual. Of course, though Dickeson's career as an adventurer, student of Native American artifacts, showman and promoter are well-documented, there is no great paper trail surrounding this unusual numismatic production. Most assume today that the heavily rusted eagle motif was produced to emboss revenue-stamped fiscal paper sometime before 1817, but Dickeson thought it probable that it was produced as a 1792 pattern cent, thus his creation of this interesting piece. Fewer than two dozen examples are generally thought to exist (uspatterns.com suggests only a dozen known), though we can remember no finer specimen than the piece offered here.
From S.H. and Henry Chapman's sale of the J.F. McCabe Collection, June 1905, Lot 68; John M. Clapp to John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate to Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. in 1942; Bowers and Merena's sale of the Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection, May 1996, Lot 111 (at $4,400).
Thanks for finally posting yours oreville!
<< <i>Not an oxymoron. A redundancy. >>
Are restrikes and fantasies the same thing? It seems that people do use the two terms interchangeably on occasion but that hardly seems right.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not an oxymoron. A redundancy. >>
Are restrikes and fantasies the same thing? It seems that people do use the two terms interchangeably on occasion but that hardly seems right. >>
Well if it didn't exist and was struck 50 years later that IMHO would be considered a fantasy restrike.
Broadstruck along with other members here hve some rather intriguing pieces.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
<< <i>
<< <i>Why did PCGS slab that private restrike? It's not a US coin is it?
Can't it be argued it is a counterfeit?
The 1804 restikes were are a privately minted concoction from around 1860 from the original dies of the 1803 large cent to meet demand of collectors at the time.
The dies were clearly quite rusted but that did not deter the minters of the time.
While not a mint issued product, these coins have become desirable by collectors and have a listing in the Redbook for many years.
In most cases if it's in Redbook then PCGS will slab it. >>
Here's hoping that the 1964 Daniel Carr Peace Dollars get Redbook Listed as he minted those for the exact same reasons's as the 1804 Restrike's.
To meet demand.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>After reading the thread earlier today I wanted to bring this one up to the top.
Broadstruck along with other members here hve some rather intriguing pieces. >>
Thanks CAF... I was drooling over this re-strike earlier today
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003