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PCGS Paris

We are here again grading coins from across Europe. Dealers from over a dozen countries have brought a wide range of coins. For all of us this is a new and exciting experience!

Comments

  • HussuloHussulo Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭
    Sounds good Don. I'm sure many new doors will be opened and the PCGS brand will be better known and used across here.
    Are there any plans for permanent non US coin graders to be based over here in Europe?
  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭✭
    Good question Hus. It's been brought up several times by European collectors.
    Dimitri



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  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wish I was there...!
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
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    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • DonWillisDonWillis Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
    A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step..... PCGS has begun grading in Paris and we are currently on a 6 week schedule of onsite grading. That schedule will be adjusted to respond to demand. I have no problem with having a full time staff in Paris as soon as the market can support it.

  • HussuloHussulo Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭
    Sounds fair. As you say it doesn't make financial sense to employ a full scale staffing team if the market isn't supporting it.

    I hope third party grading does catch on this inside of the pond as I think it is especially helpful for novices and it does mean people can invest in coins easier.

    As much as I am a supporter of "buy the book first", study what you collect, try to learn how to grade raw and would recommend that to anyone interested in the hobby. I am a realist and know not every collector or investor won't to do so or have the time to do so. Also there are times us more experienced collectors can still get caught out. We can’t all be an expert at everything.

    I also believe the hobby does need investors as much as some collectors don’t like the idea of investors. They bring money to the market, drive prices up and keep coin collecting stable.

    Let’s face it there are many trustworthy dealers around but also a fair number of untrustworthy ones. At least a novice buying a PCGS graded coin knows what they are buying is genuine and thus safe. I have also seen some dealers who I thought have over graded their (raw) coins. Where as some are very conservative.

    The main problem I foresee, and its open to dispute and is arguable, is that grading standards in the UK are slightly stricter then the US. I'm not saying PCGS or any other TGP deliberately under grade but in the US you guys have more tolerance on what you would call uncirculated.

    I'm also not saying one type grading is better then the other. From what I have seen and what I've been told by some US collectors and dealers (Marc Feld etc) is that a US coin especially earlier coins may have been very slightly circulated but still receive a grade of MS60-61. Over here in the UK if a coin shows any wear it couldn't be called uncirculated. I've seen some coins receive a grade of AUNC due to small rub essentially cabinet friction on one side. So essentially the coin hasn’t circulated but because it does show wear it isn’t graded uncirculated. A coin over here needs to appear as minted (but allowed to be toned) to be called uncirculated. I’ve seen coins graded MS60-62 by US TGP’s being described as EF-AUNC in the description of British auction houses. This can cause some confusion amongst collectors over here.

    IMHO some of the earlier coins are stricter graded here/ or more leniently graded there. For example I purchased a 1696 6 pence from Spink graded GEF sent it to get graded in the US (another respectable TGP, not PCGS) and it came back MS63. I also purchased a very nice 1771 PCGS AU58 1/2 penny from a forum member from the US. Very happy with the coin, purchased at a good price and I'll be offering it for sale but at just below Spink 2010 EF price guide price. If I were to offer it in line with Spink AU price (price guide only goes up to EF no price given for higher) I believe I would struggle to sell it.

    Also some dealers and collectors over hear down grade coins due to a week strike. In the US you seem to be more lenient. For example if a coin essentially has little wear but the details aren’t sharp due to a week strike it could still get an EF grade, but on the same token a collector might not want to pay EF money for it as there might be nicer EF graded coins out there without the week strike so a dealer might only pay VF for it and sell it on as a VF.

    These are the problems I believe need tackling or overcoming before PCGS or any other US TGP would become more excepted in the UK.
  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,070 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hus, I think UK buyers will just have to realize that the PCGS coins are graded by PCGS standards, not UK standards. The best part of PCGS coins in Europe will be the authenticty of the coins. Europe, before China, was the hotbed of counterfeited coins.

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  • HussuloHussulo Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭
    I agree with you Don and I'm used to PCGS/US grading and the Sheldon scale but a lot of collectors over here are stuck in their ways or used to the different grading over here.

    I don't want to be a kill joy and I've already pointed out the pro's of PCGS (whom I often send coins to). I'm not taking sides, merely trying to point out what some of the stumbling blocks might be when trying to become more excepted in the UK. I can't speak for the rest of Europe but I believe their grading is more in line with the UK.
  • wybritwybrit Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭
    Hus, it really depends who is grading the coins. All I have to do is go see what "girl guides" is selling and know that it's called UNC, but is probably circulated and probably cleaned. Like you, I have also seen some pretty crummy British coins in US TPGs that should never qualify as "Mint State."

    Some Brit sent me a BS note recently about an MS64 Gothic florin I was selling, telling me with pompous authority that if the coin is not well struck, it is not uncirculated - and added that CGS would call it AU, blah, blah, blah.

    I wrote back and told him that if this were the case, not a single 1911-1926 George V florin could ever be graded UNC by CGS, except for 1911 proofs. Of course, there are UNC grades to be found - and the lions are probably as flat as Nebraska.

    I recently cracked out two CGS 85 coins and will be submitting them to PCGS. Granted, that's only 2 data points, but it will be interesting to see what the PCGS opinion is.

    The Paris venture is a good start. Graders will become more familiar with the particulars of European coins over time. It is feasible that a level of acceptance will occur, but it will take time and patience.

    Former owner, Cambridge Gate collection.
  • HussuloHussulo Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭
    You make some valid points wybrit. I think acceptance is the key word. Either PCGS will come in line with European grading or European grading will come in line with PCGS. It's not a huge but there seems to be a difference.

    It would be nice to have a universal standard.

    Please post the results for your CGS coins when they get graded in the US. You didn't mention the coins or the dates but CGS 85 would be equivaliant to US MS 61. CGS grade on a 100 point scale. Unc being 80-100. I predict they come back MS63-64.

    This isn't to say one company is grading beter then the other but both grading correctly to their standard.
  • See earlier entry
  • In my article in the UK Coin News of April 2010 I noted that I had forty British coins that had been third party graded (mainly US TPG) that I had submitted to the UK Coin Grading Service (CGS) for re-grading. One coin was rejected by CGS before it even left its capsule (slab) and another was rejected after it was removed from its slab. Of the thirty eight other coins only those graded by PCGS were comparable to the resulting CGS graded results. However in my sample of ten PCGS graded coins, PCGS MS63 was equivalent to CGS AU78 with MS64 being close to CGS UNC 82. Having seen the benchmark set of coins used by CGS in their grading process of British Coins I believe that their grading of British Coins, although 'severe' by other grading houses 'standards' is both consistent and reasonable.

    My original trepidation (mentioned in my article) has been borne out because a number of coins from my collection I have submitted to CGS for grading that I considered Uncirculated have in many cases ended up just EF and in some cases just VF. However, I have confidence in their service for British Coins. By the same rationale, were I to collect any non British or British Commonwealth/Dominion Coins I would most assuredly look for any that had been PCGS graded coins! I wish PCGS well on the opening of their Paris Office.
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bill, can you link us to your article?

    One shortcoming in the UK grading scale is rub, or hairlines. I have seen many a UK dealer calling a coin "FDC" or equivalent not mention hairlining. I had also mentioned the ATS Specimen Jubilee 1935 in MS65 clearly being superior to the CGS85 I have of the same coin - admittedly a sample of one but still illustrates grading standards go both ways.
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