PCGS MS-65 US-Philippines Peso in Goldberg's auction

IloiloKano

This is a beautiful and rare coin, with a population of 2, (only one finer in MS-66). If I remember correctly, justhavingfun lost out on the MS-66 example when bidding exceeded $50K. Goldberg's estimate is $25,000 - $30,000. However, it would not surprise me to see it go well above those figures.

justhavingfun, will you be bidding?

Here's the link: MS-65 1912-S Philippines Peso

coinkat

Saw this one it the catalog today- terrific coin - good luck to the bidders that make watching the bidding exciting

CB2597

FilamCoins

This is a very important coin in the series.

If I remember correctly, it was a POP 1/0 in 65 that went for $65k at auction a few years ago. If the 2/1 POP is correct, that means another 65 and a 66 were made within the past few years. I'd like to know total certified in 65 (or higher) between PCGS and NGC before speculating on what this might bring.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>This is a beautiful and rare coin, with a population of 2, (only one finer in MS-66). If I remember correctly, justhavingfun lost out on the MS-66 example when bidding exceeded $50K. Goldberg's estimate is $25,000 - $30,000. However, it would not surprise me to see it go well above those figures.

justhavingfun, will you be bidding?

Here's the link: MS-65 1912-S Philippines Peso >>




Who auctioned these previous gem 1912-S pesos?

IloiloKano

I believe it was Heritage that auctioned the $65K example, and I know justhavingfun had bid on it but lost out. Seems like I remember receiving a flyer from Heritage announcing several record prices realized, and this was one of them. Maybe FilamCoins can shed more light.

FilamCoins

Here's the Eliasburg example in 65 that brought the record price of $63,250 back in 2007. I do remember JHF saying that he was the underbidder. The coin was purchased by a specialist dealer in NJ. Don't know where it is now. Looks like there are at least 2 in 65 now (and possibly a third in 66)??

krueger

My critque on the piece.
Flat strike breast/ feathers for a 65?. Looks like some typical yellow dipping residue remaining . Poorly rinsed? Me thinks Someone Probably tried to get black toning off, some of which remains between Filipinas and rim. I don't like the digs on the face they're offensive to me from a grading point of view. There is Some Slide friction all along the leg causing luster breakage. A friend said he thinks it was cleaned ultrasonically because of the look he has seen before, I have not seen enough of such pieces to know.

Krueger

7Jaguars

Wow, scathing commentary but I do agree with the cleaning bits. I guess we may not know what the coin looked like before cleaning, which is too bad. Rare coin that should have had better treatment perhaps?

Hopefully no slavish bidding to a TPG number on this one...

IloiloKano

Unfortunately, the entire US-Philippines series (all denominations) suffer from horrendously rampant cleaning by the early collector base. My own best example of this date, though attractive and pleasing, was cleaned, as I have been unable to find an affordable uncleaned AU or better example. That makes collecting this series extremely challenging... and rewarding when nice uncleaned examples are found at a good price. That is also why so many are extremely rare in high grades.

7Jaguars

Hear you on that! I have that experience with many Vicky issues as well. Still, the number grade should not be pushed by the fact that few survive, and if the best coin out there is an AU53 then so be it and let it be graded such ( this one looks better than that).

IloiloKano

Oh, I don't think rampant cleaning pushed the PCGS grading. In fact, I believe grading probably considered other factors, such as the hardness of the alloy, which was changed to 80% silver in 1907. You see similar adjustment of grading with US Morgan dollars from different mints, a few of which used inferior presses to the others and as a direct result produced much less detail in the area of eagle breast feathers.

I am not saying I believe the coin in question was not overgraded, merely that I believe other factors, directly relating to what details could actually be produced and expected, may have been considered. That is, if you took coins directly out of the dies immediately after minting, how much detail would be typical?

Note: At least two trial strikes were struck by the Philadelphia Mint in 1907, one on a .900 fine planchette and the other on a harder .800 fine planchette. After their discovery in 1979, the Central Bank Museum in the Philippines acquired the .900 fine example, while the .800 fine example went to a private collection, but it was recently acquired by another private collector, a Dr. Pineda. It is not impossible that level of details exhibited by the .800 fine trial strike were considered by PCGS personnel prior to assigning a grade, especially for a coin that would be considered "high value".

I tried to find an online image of the 1907 .800 fine Peso for comparison without success.

Perhaps PCGS would elaborate on and/or correct the above speculation, but I won't be holding my breath. I personally believe the coin is likely overgraded, (I'm with krueger on the face digs), but I am not even close to being considered a grading expert, though I think I'm (toot toot) better than average with regards to US-Philippine coinage.

coinkat

There is a difference in the smaller catalog picture...

Some of the comments seem fair- the coin is clearly not original- and for some that it is okay- some like white coins others don't.

7Jaguars

Good discussion - these are the kind I like on the board rather than just the usual and ordinary "braggart" type with recent purchases, etc. Thanks for some useful lively discussion!

krueger

Note: At least two trial strikes were struck by the Philadelphia Mint in 1907, one on a .900 fine planchette and the other on a harder .800 fine planchette. After their discovery in 1979, the Central Bank Museum in the Philippines acquired the .900 fine example, while the .800 fine example went to a private collection, but it was recently acquired by another private collector, a Dr. Pineda. It is not impossible that level of details exhibited by the .800 fine trial strike were considered by PCGS personnel prior to assigning a grade, especially for a coin that would be considered "high value".

I tried to find an online image of the 1907 .800 fine Peso for comparison without success.

U.S.P.I. Peso 1907 Proof Specimen (two known)



Krueger

illini420

I haven't seen too many high grade USPI coins in hand so I can't wait to see this one at lot viewing It's a little out of my league though, but will still be neat to check out.

yellowkid

Beautiful coin, if only it had some color!

Justhavingfun

Yes, I was the underbidder on this coin. It is one of the key coins in the series, and I was the underbidder at $50k. The coin catalogued at the time for $2,500, and I never dreamed I could lose it at 20 times catalog. But I did, to a bid of $55, which, plus the juice came to $63,250.

I since nailed down another lovely example of the coin in MS 65.

Best wishes from Chiang Mai


Just Having Fun

7Jaguars

I'll be scared if later British milled ever takes off like this!
Big spenders, please stay away...