Quiz - Morgan Dollar Reverses

kurtdog

Very simply, what is it about a 1921 Morgan Dollar reverse, regardless of mint, which differentiates same from all other Morgan Dollar reverses?

In other words, supposing you were shown several Morgan Dollar reverses, and only one of them was a 1921, could you pick out the 1921? I could. Supposing none of them were 1921, or all of them were 1921, could you tell that? I could. If you don't believe it, try me.

All that's required is reasonably sharp pictures. There's one "tell" that's common to all 1921 reverses, and it's exclusive to those reverses. What is it? That's the question. Good luck.

PS: I basically posed this quiz a couple months ago, but the thread quickly went to about 30 replies, and so I thought just reviving it might be a little confusing to first-comers. I'll spoon-feed you the answer, this time, though, if you can't get it, I promise.

PPS: I'll even throw in some pictures.

blu62vette

For me it is just different. Easy to tell. Smaller bird to me with a bigger eyeball.

djdilliodon

eagle looks smaller to me as well. The spacing and the letters look different on the word "in" of in god we trust.

shasta7

I'd say the difference is the breast feathers of the eagle... (especially the ones that are lower between the legs)
As the feathers are conclaved & other Morgans are convex... so yes they are different...

shasta7

19Lyds

The feathers on the arrows are unique to the reverse of 1921.

In 1878, the top feather was parallel to the shaft. That changed in 1879 to a sharp angle.

1921 still had an angle but it was only slight compared to previous years.

1878


1879


1904


1921

kurtdog

So far, those aren't the one I'm thinking of, guys. Let's not get off-track for that, though. I'm sure there are other very good "tells." Mine is much more obvious than those, though.

djdilliodon

Ok i got it i think! The wing tips are more rounded and are further away from the rim!

blu62vette

<< <i>So far, those aren't the one I'm thinking of, guys. Let's not get off-track for that, though. I'm sure there are other very good "tells." Mine is much more obvious than those, though. >>



ok then how about weakly struck?

but there is always an exception......

bsshog40

The difference I see is the left wing tip is further from the rim than all the others.

shasta7

The only other thing I can think of that is different is one of two things...

either the berries on the right side... 17 on 21's 16 on prior... But if your referring to this many of the 21-P coins had both...
D & S mints only had 17... (they also had less reed marks on the edges)

or
is it the dots your referring to as the dies were tested with a punch to check the hardness...
by testing the dies... the coins would shows die dots or raised areas where tested.

shasta7

kurtdog

OK, look, I'm testing a hypothesis. Forgive me for that, please, but many years ago, I had heard of this from an old guy. Hell, he had been around for so long, he must have known something, right? Seriously, though, he had owned the hobby shop where we had bought some of our coins, as kids. He had told us about this obvious "tell," and I had just never forgot it, and, it had held true, ever since. Therefore, I'm really just trying to determine, here, whether anybody else had ever noticed it.

Oh, and shasta7, you're very close!

PS: I don't want to spill the answer, just yet. Why don't one of you post a reverse for me, I'll tell you if it's a 1921. Photoshop-out what you're saying are your "tells," it doesn't matter. Just for a little fun; if you want...

19Lyds

shasta7

My last guess

The difference would be the berry in the middle of the ribbon at the bottom... on the 21's it is larger!!

shasta7

messydesk

At a low level, there are so many differences between a D reverse and the others that this "tell" you mention could be anything from the configuration of the arrow fletching and the size of the stars, to positioning of design elements relative to denticles and defects on legend lettering . At a higher level, they "just look different," and not in a good way. Ignoring the date, the same could be said about the obverse.

19Lyds

I don't understand why he just doesn't come out and say what it is. The same thing came up with the other thread he started but he never said what this "tell" was there either.

BTW, the photo I posted was of only the dentils to see if that perhaps might be it.

kurtdog

Lee, I turned this into a quiz, because, in part, at least, I want to see if anybody else ever noticed this. I can't find that out if I tell you the answer, in advance. So, I had to make a quiz out of it. You see, I haven't seen every single Morgan Dollar ever minted. I heard about this "tell," though, and it's held up in every one I have seen. It's very obvious, too. And, I've yet to have seen it referenced--anywhere.

Let me let the quiz go on a little longer, give others a chance to try to get it. I won't let it drag on too long. If nobody gets it by November 1, 2012, I promise I'll divulge it.

I might even do it sooner than that.

19Lyds

Where's the 21?

blu62vette

<< <i>Where's the 21?

>>



#4, maybe #1 also. If there is one it is #4.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>Where's the 21?

>>



#4, maybe #1 also. If there is one it is #4. >>

Correct. #1 and #4 are both 21's.

I've downloaded and examined one of each date from the PCGS CoinFacts site and can find no "easily" discernable differences other than whats been pointed out and the fact that the eagles beak is rounded. The Eagles Hood is different as well, where it meets the breast. The Gap between the eagles neck and left wing is wider and rounder but that change occured in 1900.

I have no idea how easy these would be to see on a coin that grades fine or lower though.

blu62vette

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Where's the 21?

>>



#4, maybe #1 also. If there is one it is #4. >>

Correct. #1 and #4 are both 21's.

I've downloaded and examined one of each date from the PCGS CoinFacts site and can find no "easily" discernable differences other than whats been pointed out and the fact that the eagles beak is rounded. The Eagles Hood is different as well, where it meets the breast. The Gap between the eagles neck and left wing is wider and rounder but that change occured in 1900.

I have no idea how easy these would be to see on a coin that grades fine or lower though. >>



Its that big ol' eyeball staring at me!!!!

MikeInFL

The distance between tail feathers and wreath seems much larger in a 21 than earlier issues.

jesbroken

While the 1878 arrow feathers where level moreso than the 1921 Morgan, they both had greater difference from the top arrow feather base to the eagle's talon with the 1921 being the farthest with less arrow feather showing on the top, whereas the inbetween years had a close base of top arrow feather to eagle's talon. JMO
Jim

kurtdog

Just got back here, Lee. The pictures are too blurry, where I need to see them. I'm not talking about the wear, the wear is OK. I'm going to say, based on these pictures, none of these is a 1921. If you'll just make the pictures a little sharper, I'll be able to tell, definitively.

Give me pictures that are guess-the-grade question caliber. Cut out what you want. Fair enough?

Anybody else, you're cordially welcome to try to stump the kurtdog, too. Same rules relative to the caliber of the pictures.

EDIT: Oops, I just read your answer, I see I blew this one! Lee, do you see those pictures you first posted? Give me that caliber and I'll get it. Again, cut out what you will.

19Lyds

<< <i>Just got back here, Lee. The pictures are too blurry, where I need to see them. I'm not talking about the wear, the wear is OK. I'm going to say, based on these pictures, none of these is a 1921. If you'll just make the pictures a little sharper, I'll be able to tell, definitively.

Give me pictures that are guess-the-grade question caliber. Cut out what you want. Fair enough?

Anybody else, you're cordially welcome to try to stump the kurtdog, too. Same rules relative to the caliber of the pictures. >>

Read the post. Todd already guessed correctly.

kurtdog

I just edited to note that. We're writing at the same time. Read my EDIT. If you can comply with that, I believe I can get it.

19Lyds

blu62vette

Not sure what the tell is but you should be able to see it on the first images posted by Lee. On the big ones it is way to obvious they are 21's.

kurtdog

No question that's a '21, Lee. Block out the head and the arrow feathers in addition to just the wing tips the next time. I couldn't see what I needed to see in that first series of pictures, though, so I was really just guessing.

kurtdog

<< <i>Not sure what the tell is but you should be able to see it on the first images posted by Lee. On the big ones it is way to obvious they are 21's. >>

Todd, no fair giving me the answer before I answer.

Seriously, though, I'm on dial-up, so it takes me a little longer to load.