Serious question about transporting gold.

SilverBaron

Greetings Everyone .....

Have a friend with a place in Panama. He wants to take his US gold coins to Panama.

We all know about the $10,000 limit without declairing it.... or has it changed?

Is it fair to say that he can take 100 1oz. gold eagles out and

only count them as $50 each ( the face value) for a total of $5,000?


Any one with actual experience with this?

No doubt this has been asked B4 ..... well ... call it a senior moment



Thousand Thanks!!

S.B.

Ciccio

I was checking with US Customs and Border Protection a while ago. (I am planning to go back to Italy sooner or later! )
It looks like there are no limits but you need to fill out a report. Though, it says "Gold Bullion is not a monetary instrument for purposes of this requirement".
I doubt you can count them as $50 each.
I am sure you can understand english better than me, so here are the links.

CBP
Negotiable Monetary Instrument

I would suggest also to check what your friend may need to enter Panama with a big amount of gold coin.

1jester

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to count the coins as face value. They are legal tender and thus the face value applies for the $10,000 limit. Above that face value, you'd have to declare but it's not illegal to import or export more than the 10 grand. Under 10 grand, no reporting is required since they are face value. Were they pure bullion (as opposed to legal tender coins), the story would be different. Good luck!

derryb

<< <i>I don't see why you wouldn't be able to count the coins as face value. They are legal tender and thus the face value applies for the $10,000 limit. Above that face value, you'd have to declare but it's not illegal to import or export more than the 10 grand. Under 10 grand, no reporting is required since they are face value. Were they pure bullion (as opposed to legal tender coins), the story would be different. Good luck!

>>



The value you put on the coins is irrelevant. The value put on them by whoever is controlling the border is what counts.

Justacommeman

You can bring over 10K but you do have to declare it. I would not play cute on the face value loop hole. They may make you sell it to them at that price in that case. Really. I would be 100% above board. Customs is no joke. JMHO. MJ

1jester

I don't think Customs is a joke either, and nevertheless here's what they say:

"There is no limit on the amount of money that can be taken out of or brought into the United States. However, if a person or persons traveling together and filing a joint declaration (CBP Form 6059-B) have $10,000 or more in currency or negotiable monetary instruments, they must fill out a "Report of International Transportation of Currency and Monetary Instruments" FinCEN 105 (former CF 4790)."

So what's wrong with counting currency the way the US gov't issues it? How is that not being above-board?

What is the purpose of a coin if it doesn't represent the amount in currency? Has there been a Supreme Court ruling on this? How is going by what the legal tender coin says is its face value a loop hole? Seriously.

Of course, Derry makes a good point from which we can logically infer that those in power can and will determine what they want from any given law, and it is wise to avoid complications.

dbcoin

You can count it at face value but then they make think you are a terrorist or narco trafficker unless you have receipts. I read a case about this recently maybe on CNN.com. So no need to declare if bringing 100 $50 coins but have receipts.

KUCH

I have no clue, but I'm following this thread cause I've pondered this same question.

dontippet

<< <i>You can bring over 10K but you do have to declare it. I would not play cute on the face value loop hole. They may make you sell it to them at that price in that case. Really. I would be 100% above board. Customs is no joke. JMHO. MJ >>




I agree with you. Why try to skirt around the issue. Declare it and be done with it.

Ciccio

<< <i>I would suggest also to check what your friend may need to enter Panama with a big amount of gold coin. >>



As I said, check this.

goingbroke

I have a close friend from Wales that regularly travels to the U.S. and buys large amounts of Gold Eagles.The first time he did so He tried to claim them at U.S. customs and the customs agent stated he did not have to claim gold as it was not cash. He found out that even though each coin said $50.00 on it that you could carry lots of gold out of the U.S. without any trouble. He has now done so over 23 times.

Justacommeman

<I have a close friend from Wales that regularly travels to the U.S. and buys large amounts of Gold Eagles.The first time he did so He tried to claim them at U.S. customs and the customs agent stated he did not have to claim gold as it was not cash. He found out that even though each coin said $50.00 on it that you could carry lots of gold out of the U.S. without any trouble. He has now done so over 23 times>

I understand US Customs not caring on this side of the pond. But what about UK customs? What does he report when he lands? What is the threshold of financial instruments allowed without declaration for the UK as a UK citizen? It seems that it would bring IAS 32 or perhaps IAS 39 into question.

TIA, MJ

CaptHenway

I love these forums, but don't think they are a good place to get legal advice.
TD

1jester

Interestingly, I once tried to declare some quite rare (and valuable) coins (including gold ones, among others) when entering another country (a member of the European Union), and in fact I was not allowed to declare them because the customs officials said they had no way of determining what the coins were (and if they were authentic, or if they were what I claimed them to be, or what PCGS and NGC claimed them to be). So they said no way, they would not allow me to declare them.

So, each country is different. And as the Captain mentions, it's probably best to consult with a few hundred or thousand legal experts to get just as many legal opinions.

As a practical approach, gold coins are by nature small (unless you're trying to move lots of them at once) and they will easily mix into a group of other coins inside a carry on bag (which is x-rayed) and nobody will be the wiser as to what you're carrying. If, on the other hand, you have a boxes containing hundreds of them, someone will notice and probably check the contents, as has happened to me in Amsterdam, at the most security-conscious airport I've ever been to. You can always ask for a private viewing so others in line will not see what you're carrying.

AboutAg

<< <i>So what's wrong with counting currency the way the US gov't issues it? How is that not being above-board?

What is the purpose of a coin if it doesn't represent the amount in currency? Has there been a Supreme Court ruling on this? How is going by what the legal tender coin says is its face value a loop hole? Seriously. >>



It's pretty simple when you think about it. The government assigns a *floor* (face value) to money, but not a *ceiling*. They guarantee that it is worth at least $50 -- but have you heard of any government guaranteeing that a coin or bill was worth exactly the face value? That the rare coin you have cannot legally be sold for above face value? No.

The other part of the logic is that you value that "$50" coin at $1,100. You wouldn't even dream of depositing it at a bank as money. So why in the world would someone declare it at the face value? Nobody in their right mind would insure it at face value! What would you do (after declaring $5,000, of 100 1-ounce coins with $50 FV each) if the customer officer said, "OK, you declared $5,000, and it got lost in the back room, so here are 250 $20 bills."

Remember, if you try this game on the IRS, they slap you with a $5,000 or so "frivolous return" penalty, in addition to any penalties/interest.

DrBuster

So how would it be any different than buying a bunch of 24k jewelery and walking through the detectors, a-la Mr T?

yellowkid

<< <i>I love these forums, but don't think they are a good place to get legal advice.
TD >>




"but they said on the boards"......

mrearlygold

What is Panamanian law say?

PerryHall

<< <i>I love these forums, but don't think they are a good place to get legal advice. >>



I'm not sure that I trust much of the coin advice offered here either.

SilverBaron

Ahemmm ......

Any one with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with this?


Thanks goingbroke & 1jester for responding to the OP as posted.


Keep on Stack'n!

1jester

Baron, you're most welcome for my input, for what it's worth (probably not much), but I am trying to relate my experiences as well as my understanding of the law. I wish I could be of real help. The last time I was in Panama was over 40 years ago.

Justacommeman

<< <i>Baron, you're most welcome for my input, for what it's worth (probably not much), but I am trying to relate my experiences as well as my understanding of the law. I wish I could be of real help. The last time I was in Panama was over 100 years ago.

>>



Did you help work on the canal?

MJ

1jester

<< <i>

<< <i>Baron, you're most welcome for my input, for what it's worth (probably not much), but I am trying to relate my experiences as well as my understanding of the law. I wish I could be of real help. The last time I was in Panama was over 100 years ago.

>>



Did you help work on the canal?

MJ >>



LOL