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Business strike or satin finish?

leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
And would you want a couple of noticeable nicks on your version of a MS68 caliber coin?
Link to coin.


Leo

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    CalebCaleb Posts: 739
    "Business strike or satin finish?"

    I don't understand the nature of your question in the title. Are you trying to say something but don't have the intestinal fortitude to just come out and ask the question? The seller to the eBay item that you linked is a member here on these boards so if you doubt that the coin is a "business strike" then why don't you just ask him instead of trying to queston his integrity. Even if PCGS had made a mistake and didn't put "SP" on the label, Mike would have sent it back to be reholdered if it was a "Satin Finish".

    Sorry, but the way you worded the title and your opening comments makes it sounds like the seller is doing something wrong. Evidently you disagree with PCGS’ grading skills, maybe you should start your own business grading image

    This thread is lame.
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    << <i>Business strike or satin finish? >>

    I don't know. But then again, I've never had the coin in my hands to examine. PCGS has, and they've apparently made a determination. Do you know something they don't?
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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Guys, come on. I don't believe leothelyon meant any harm. The nature of his question might be suspect, but Leo isn't.

    PCGS grades well and certainly knows what a satin finish vs a business strike is and what the repercussions are when a coin is mislabeled. But, with that said, labeling/mechanical errors do occur and it is possible it was missed by the seller.

    peacockcoins

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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With the large pics the seller has provided, the surfaces take on a satin appearance while a business strike will have smooth, mirror-like surfaces. Whatever the case, collectors need to make the distinction between what qualifies as a business strike versus a satin finish product regardless of what the label says.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The seller is probably the top in the field for picking/slabbing high quality current issue coins.....I doubt if any "mistake" has been made.
    That being said.....and with all due respect, thats probably the LAST coin Id ever lay 5K out for.
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    7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the OP was hinting at the appearance of the coin itself and not especially what PCGS thought, except as a secondary point. If the capsule were removed, does the coin appear to be Satin or "business strike"? I vote on photo appearance for the former, although the in-hand caveat remains. Too bad the graders will not throw in their rationale.
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    If the question is did PCGS get it right? Yes they did - Business Strike Coin. Funny if I submitted these a month ago, before the mint set release, we would not be here Right?

    Please if you have any doubt of this sit down to countless boxes and bags of coins and you will see for yourself that surface varies from denomination to denomination and also between P and D mint coins.
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Than the 75 or so 2010 D 5c Business Strike coins we graded across the street got it wrong too?? Don't think so
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Hey Leo

    2004 P Peace Medal Jefferson Nickel PCGS MS68

    And your thoughts now after seeing these pic's???

    Certainly not

    << <i>smooth, mirror-like surfaces >>



    Best to know before you go..........
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    How exciting, a forum member is asking thousands for ultra modern coins on eBay. I guess the premise is the business strike coin in that grade is exceedingly rare.

    So is the coin a business strike or satin finish? Looks like a satin finish to me. However I'm just viewing a photo, PCGS and the forum member have seen it in hand.

    Does PCGS ever make mechanical errors? Of course, so does NGC and that is why there are processes in place for correcting mislabeled coins.

    Is the coin a business strike? If so satiny, lustrous, business strikes in ultra high grade are not exceedingly rare otherwise how would mas3387 get, and I quote, "Than the 75 or so 2010 D 5c Business Strike coins we graded across the street got it wrong too?? "

    Right there we see 75 high grade "business" strike coins have been graded. So they are not exceedingly rare right off the bat just from this one submitter. So the coins are not worth thousands each.

    -- edited to correct spelling mistake.
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭

    Just the reason we stay away from here - Another know it all who has nothing better to do and no clue as to what a business strike coin could or should look like......


    You have yourself a "Nice Day"


    BTW NGC graded only 1 - 2010 5c MS68FS coin and it was a P Mint
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    "BTW NGC graded only 1 - 2010 5c MS68FS coin and it was a P Mint"

    -- So far.


    You have a nice day too. image
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    << <i>With the large pics the seller has provided, the surfaces take on a satin appearance while a business strike will have smooth, mirror-like surfaces. >>

    I have two cents, taken from circulation, one with smooth, mirror-like surfaces, the other with a satin appearance. Both are the same date, which is 5 years before the mint began including satin finish coins in mint sets.

    I think you have to be careful about making conclusions based on other peoples' pictures. But then, that's just me...
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    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I looked at a lot of box's to and they do look a bit like a satin finish. I even sold him a box hope he found it in my box. I have 22 box's to look at but siting on the side lines for now. Good for you TAZMIC hope you get what you want for it hard to find in this grade. image


    Hoard the keys.
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭



    << <i>- So far. You have a nice day too. >>



    Let's talk after you sit down to 1 - 2 - 5 - 10 ++ boxes of these coins and than let us know weather they are not business strike or not
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    MICHAELDIXONMICHAELDIXON Posts: 6,411 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is definitely a business strike. The pictures are big enough and quality enough you can tell from them what it is.
    Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is September 5-7, 2024 at the Eisenhower Hotel in Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
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    gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The nick on the chin and the large gouge over I B in liberty,should
    hold the coin to MS64.JMO
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dont worry Taz no one doubts the scarcity and the amount of work that goes into picking the RIGHT coins that make the high grades. You got it down to a science and youre doing the collectors of the future a great huge favor with the work you are doing now. And yes...many will doubt the value of these high grade coins, and they have their right. In some ways Im a doubter also, and in some ways Im a believer. My MS70RD Lincoln is a prize, you made that, I paid well....and I am happy. Value has went up, nearly doubled since my purchase a few years ago, based on the recent memorial cent sale.

    I think part of the problem is a high price for a coin of the current production year. The low pop has yet to prove itself....probably needs a few years to somewhat stabilize. After that...the pool of unmarked coins and those willing to search them.....will begin to dry up.

    Keep on pluggin!~
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Keep on pluggin!~ >>



    Oh no doubt !!! Working on making it's partner the P Mint In MS68FS image

    As for the price, sure maybe set high for right now but that is why there is the Best Offer Option
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    <<I think part of the problem is a high price for a coin of the current production year. The low pop has yet to prove itself....probably needs a few years to somewhat stabilize. After that...the pool of unmarked coins and those willing to search them.....will begin to dry up.>>

    I didn't think I would be saying this but I completely agree with ambro51. image

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    ClosedLoopClosedLoop Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭
    WOW.image
    figglehorn
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Only other MS68FS Jeff graded since 2003 was a 2006 D Pop 1

    7 Plus years !!!
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hey Leo

    2004 P Peace Medal Jefferson Nickel PCGS MS68

    And your thoughts now after seeing these pic's???

    Certainly not

    << <i>smooth, mirror-like surfaces >>



    Best to know before you go.......... >>




    I'd say satin!

    But how does a coin survive in MS68 condition after going through the minting process, from the hopper to the 1 ton bags that are moved by a fork lift and the long transitions by truck, through the counter and coin rolling machines and the fact that there are less than a dozen coins ever having been graded MS68 in the last 70+ years of this series. And the seller hits the few boxes that produce 2 MS68 examples?

    My point is, what's the sense in collecting both varieties if they both end up looking the same. A lot can be said about this. The business strike needs to have the smooth proof-like surfaces while the satin needs to look as satin as it can get.

    I really have no stake in whatever anyone decides in what they collect. But I do know what I want in a business strike versus a satin finish strike.

    As for earlier dates before the satin era, it's true that they can be found with the satin look but is that a surface condition from a strike problem? And we really should be searching for a smoother EDS struck example for the business strikes?

    If you look at the NGC graded coins the seller has up on ebay, the business strikes look like business strikes.

    Now, believe it or not, there is a circle of trust among collectors who think along the lines I've stated above but unfortunately, someone will eventually get stuck with a very expensive business strike with satiny surfaces nobody will want.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭✭✭

    But how does a coin survive in MS68 condition after going through the minting process, from the hopper to the 1 ton bags that are moved by a fork lift and the long transitions by truck, through the counter and coin rolling machines and the fact that there are less than a dozen coins ever having been graded MS68 in the last 70+ years of this series. And the seller hits the few boxes that produce 2 MS68 examples?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    They survive,,,, in 2004 I "MADE" a 2004-D Peace Medal Nickel in PCGS MS68, a POP 1 coin at the time image

    The coin came from 1 of a dozen rolls I picked up at my local bank on a Thursday afternoon.

    GrandAm image
    GrandAm :)
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    DatentypeDatentype Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    The satin finish do not look anyhting like that coin for 2010-d, therfore the designation is correct.

    The coin is ms66 quality however with the massive gash to the chin and the liberty verbiage. The other gash on the chin and below the lip and scratches would have made it a 7 grade along with the track marks in the field above Monticello but the others for sure make it over graded - they sure blew that one! Just my opinion on the grade but either way nice find and congrats on the score!
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>f you look at the NGC graded coins the seller has up on ebay, the business strikes look like business strikes. >>

    LOL

    I am no photo expert, that said two different holders will change the "look" of the coin.

    Leo believe what you wish the PCGS batch and the NGC batch both are Business Strike coins.



    << <i>Please if you have any doubt of this sit down to countless boxes and bags of coins and you will see for yourself that surface varies from denomination to denomination and also between P and D mint coins. >>



    Lets talk after you do this
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i> The satin finish do not look anyhting like that coin for 2010-d, therfore the designation is correct. >>



    Thanks Mark !!!

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    PawPaulPawPaul Posts: 5,845
    Oh man .......... I have no idea whatsoever ; just keep making those Buis. strike SHQ's so I can complete my set image


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    GemineyeGemineye Posts: 5,374


    << <i>Business strike or satin finish? >>


    While trying not to comment on an ongoing aution ..it is hard not to comment on the label from PCGS...One wonders if the grade is true to it's number designation...?!?!?!....Just a thought.....my humble opinion ..always....image
    ......Larry........image
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>But how does a coin survive in MS68 condition after going through the minting process, from the hopper to the 1 ton bags that are moved by a fork lift and the long transitions by truck, through the counter and coin rolling machines and the fact that there are less than a dozen coins ever having been graded MS68 in the last 70+ years of this series. And the seller hits the few boxes that produce 2 MS68 examples?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    They survive,,,, in 2004 I "MADE" a 2004-D Peace Medal Nickel in PCGS MS68, a POP 1 coin at the time image

    The coin came from 1 of a dozen rolls I picked up at my local bank on a Thursday afternoon.

    GrandAm image >>



    And what kind of surfaces did it have? And what happens to all the satin finish coins that were cut out of mint sets that didn't make a submission?
    At least, do you believe it's more probable for satin coins to make their way into circulation than business strikes into mint sets? image
    And again, regardless what surfaces your Peace Medal has, it may very well be a business strike but to stay on topic, do you think there should be some distinction in quality between the business strike and the satin strike?


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>But how does a coin survive in MS68 condition after going through the minting process, from the hopper to the 1 ton bags that are moved by a fork lift and the long transitions by truck, through the counter and coin rolling machines and the fact that there are less than a dozen coins ever having been graded MS68 in the last 70+ years of this series. And the seller hits the few boxes that produce 2 MS68 examples?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    They survive,,,, in 2004 I "MADE" a 2004-D Peace Medal Nickel in PCGS MS68, a POP 1 coin at the time image

    The coin came from 1 of a dozen rolls I picked up at my local bank on a Thursday afternoon.

    GrandAm image >>



    Also, do you have any info on the 70 or so 2009-P business strikes that ended up in satin holders or vice-versa. I believe they were all sent back for review and were corrected. Years ago, we had the same problem with the 1997-P SMS strikes. A few coins were labeled as business strikes in MS69 grade. Wondercoin had his hand in correcting the pops on those, I believe.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I sold the Peace Medal Nickel shortly after making it to a board member. He has photos of it and he can post them it he so wishes.

    It is a Business Strike Coin image
    GrandAm :)
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Also, do you have any info on the 70 or so 2009-P business strikes that ended up in satin holders or vice-versa. I believe they were all sent back for review and were corrected. Years ago, we had the same problem with the 1997-P SMS strikes. A few coins were labeled as business strikes in MS69 grade. Wondercoin had his hand in correcting the pops on those, I believe. >>



    Sorry Not the case with our coins, Not the case with GRANDAM's coin

    << Hey Leo

    2004 P Peace Medal Jefferson Nickel PCGS MS68

    And your thoughts now after seeing these pic's???

    Certainly not

    << smooth, mirror-like surfaces >>



    Best to know before you go.......... >>





    << <i>I'd say satin! >>



    Well there ya go, If you don't know the difference.......................
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Ok Leo since you know what is SF and what is not - what deserves an MS68 or not

    We decided to end the listing you brought up on these forums to tare apart and started a new one with coin #2

    2010 D Jefferson Nickel


    And even brought the price down since the coin has gotten beat up here

    Thanks Leo

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    GemineyeGemineye Posts: 5,374
    Gee I think we're getting ripped as far as this whole fiasco goes with the Satin and non Satin finish.Collectors pay big bucks for a non-Satin which could be a Smoothie-Satin from a Mint set.Mind you now I said ....."could be"....I don't wanna cause any waves with Big Brother.....!!!
    ......Larry........image
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Hey Larry - our coins are labeled correctly as business strike it's a select few who "think" differently
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    melikecoinsmelikecoins Posts: 1,154 ✭✭
    mas3387
    I have bought coins from you
    They are just what you say

    Glen
    I don't buy slabs I make them
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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Thank you Glen image
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If anyone else would like to chime in and lend their opinion on whether there should be some distinction noted between the business strike and the satin strike, please feel free to do so. Otherwise, there will be little reason for this thread to continue.


    Leo image

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>some distinction noted >>



    PCGS has done so by labeling SF coins as SP67 /SP68 / SP69 instead of MS67 / MS68 / MS69 I believe it started back in September / October 2009



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    mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭



    << <i> Otherwise, there will be little reason for this thread to continue. >>



    Thank you
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    << <i>If anyone else would like to chime in and lend their opinion on whether there should be some distinction noted between the business strike and the satin strike... >>

    There *is* a distinction between the two- the mint says so:

    2010 United States Mint Uncirculated Coin Set

    United States Mint uncirculated coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature the satin finish introduced in 2005.

    Unless, of course, somebody wants to make the claim that the mint doesn't know what they're doing... image
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    After a number of presses that these coin dies go thru ..and after the coins are placed into their respected cello..How does one submit a SF coin for grading compared to a coin from a roll or a bag...??Is the coin left in the cello to prove that it is a SF coin or does one claim it to be a SF coin or a Mint state coin..???..OH.....I have made some coin submissions..not very many though...!!
    ......Larry........image
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    ManorcourtmanManorcourtman Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>After a number of presses that these coin dies go thru ..and after the coins are placed into their respected cello..How does one submit a SF coin for grading compared to a coin from a roll or a bag...??Is the coin left in the cello to prove that it is a SF coin or does one claim it to be a SF coin or a Mint state coin..???..OH.....I have made some coin submissions..not very many though...!! >>



    Coins are normally submitted "naked" in 2x2 flips. PCGS graders make the distinction between SF or Biz strike. The coin in question was submitted before the SF Mint set issues were even released according to Mas. No question Biz strike. End of story. Where it gets sticky is submitting Biz strikes after the Unc. Mint sets come out. I believe the graders who see an extraordinary example have a bias toward calling them SF. That's why I don't submit Biz strikes after the Mint sets come out because if the coin resembles a SF coin in any way the graders tend to call it SF, at least that's been my experience in 8 years of submitting multiple hundreds of Biz strikes. I am not going to search 10,000 coins from Bank rolls only to have it called a SF/SP coin. Finding amazing Biz strike coins is a long, expensive, tedious process and only a few people still do it. Top pop Biz strike coins are severely underappreciated imho. Congrats to Mas for getting one so highly graded. It looks better than 95%++ of the Nickels I've seen in the 2010 Mint sets!!




    edit for spelling
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    My comments are directed to the OP..as he questioning a SF coin..I know that it is a "FS"..(full step)coin by the designation.My comment also was to the grade number of the coin in which 68 was placed on the label.It seemed in my opinion which might be controversial that it wasn't due to distracting mark.My next comment was made in regards in that which coins are made as to either satin or mint state from the mint and are being graded by PCGS with their standards..also subjecdtive.I too have lost interest in these mint vs satin when it come to choose which is supperior or which is worth my hard earned dollar....image
    ......Larry........image
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    PawPaulPawPaul Posts: 5,845
    the end
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    << <i>the end >>

    You're ending a thread by bumping it to the top? Interesting strategy. image
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's one of the shorter threads where this subject was brought up. This Ian of Teletrade, it would be interesting to know what qualities he was looking at to distinguish a business strike from the SF strike.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    << <i>If anyone else would like to chime in and lend their opinion on whether there should be some distinction noted between the business strike and the satin strike, please feel free to do so. Otherwise, there will be little reason for this thread to continue.


    Leo image >>



    I thought there was "little reason for this thread to" be started in the first place.

    JMHO
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,362 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If anyone else would like to chime in and lend their opinion on whether there should be some distinction noted between the business strike and the satin strike... >>

    There *is* a distinction between the two- the mint says so:

    2010 United States Mint Uncirculated Coin Set

    United States Mint uncirculated coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature the satin finish introduced in 2005.

    Unless, of course, somebody wants to make the claim that the mint doesn't know what they're doing... image >>



    Excellent, but there's a problem with all this if the US Mint used the same dies to strike both coins.

    I have yet to find where they made special SF dies separate from those used for striking business strikes. Hello?!?

    Another bit of info;

    The satin finish, which will be continued on uncirculated coin sets in the future, will also help collectors differentiate between Uncirculated Coins in the United States Mint Uncirculated Coin Sets and those coins in bags and rolls that have never circulated.

    Someone, please tell me they made regular dies to strike the business strikes! image


    Leo


    (Something is telling me that I should have read that 1000+ post thread over in the registry forum 3-4 years ago)

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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