Impossible Grade?

Coppercolor

One of my goals is to make a Mint State 67BN PCGS Lincoln (wheat cent). Has anyone spoken with PCGS about the chances of them assigning this grade, or does anyone have an opinion?


There are both a PCGS 68BN and a PCGS 69BN 1793 Wreath Cent, so that grade seems theoretically possible.

There are four PCGS 67BN Matte Proof Lincolns in the Population Report.

There is but one lonely PCGS 67BN Mint State Indian Cent, but there is one. (though it could be a clerical error with no 66BNs and no 67RB's for that date 1893).

But Sadly, there are ZERO PCGS 67BN Mint State Lincoln Cents in the Population Report.

In effect I'm asking "what gives?"

And I'm asking what is holding graders back from assigning 67BN to a mint state lincoln? Is it that the series is not old enough? Meaning are brown lincolns automatically deducted for having become toned in a relatively short period of time , whereas the 200 year old coins are not?

I'm very very curious.

Steve

<< <i>


There are four PCGS 67BN Matte Proof Lincolns in the Population Report.

But Sadly, there are ZERO PCGS 67BN Lincoln Cents in the Population Report.



[/q

Coppercolor,
Something does not sound right. Please correct what you are trying to say.
Thanks,
Steve


OH, I think I get it now. You are talking about proof 67BN AND mint state 67BN Lincoln cents, right?

Coppercolor

Thanks for the heads up Steve.

Restated: My goal is to make a mint state 67BN lincoln wheat cent. I edited the original post to make it clearer.

Jeff

coinguy1

In the vast majority of cases, once a bronze coin has mellowed to "BN", it doesn't display enough luster and eye-appeal to warrant a 67 (or higher grade). Still, over the years, I have seen a few which I thought were deserving.

Personally, I think that the Wreath Cents which were mentioned, were graded to a completely different standard, and did not warrant the grades they received.

Coppercolor

<< <i>In the vast majority of cases, once a bronze coin has mellowed to "BN", it doesn't display enough luster and eye-appeal to warrant a 67 (or higher grade). Still, over the years, I have seen a few which I thought were deserving.

Personally, I think that the Wreath Cents which were mentioned, were graded to a completely different standard, and did not warrant the grades they received. >>



I've heard that same thing about the Wreath Cents now from several sources. Hmmm. Thank you for confirming Mark.

Of the 30 or so 66BN PCGS lincolns I've eyeballed, I agree with the first part. It seems the ones the maintain their 67 level luster are the ones with color, intead of brown. Renomedyphes has one that looks right, at least according to photos!

Jeff

JoeV

As per the Official Ana Grading Standards

"MS-67 – Has original luster and normal strike for date and mint. May have three or fours very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show, or one or two minor scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is above average. If copper, the coin has luster and original color."

I think the final sentence is the key. When the coin is no longer 100% red and loses some luster it will never get the grade. PCGS seems to really stick to this It's very disappointing becuase I have seen 66RB and 66BN Lincoln's & Indians that are much more appealing than some MS67RD's.

Coppercolor

<< <i>As per the Official Ana Grading Standards

I think the final sentence is the key. When the coin is no longer 100% red and loses some luster it will never get the grade. . >>




Interesting. But what accounts for the small group of 67BN Matte Proofs and the single 67BN Indian?

Jeff

coinguy1

<< <i>As per the Official Ana Grading Standards

"MS-67 – Has original luster and normal strike for date and mint. May have three or fours very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show, or one or two minor scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is above average. If copper, the coin has luster and original color."

I think the final sentence is the key. When the coin is no longer 100% red and loses some luster it will never get the grade. PCGS seems to really stick to this It's very disappointing becuase I have seen 66RB and 66BN Lincoln's & Indians that are much more appealing than some MS67RD's. >>

But, in countless instances, the major grading companies do not necessarily follow the official ANA grading standards. And, if by "original color" the guide means full red, that wouldn't allow for MS67RB grades, either, per their standards.

cardinal

<< <i>In the vast majority of cases, once a bronze coin has mellowed to "BN", it doesn't display enough luster and eye-appeal to warrant a 67 (or higher grade). Still, over the years, I have seen a few which I thought were deserving.

Personally, I think that the Wreath Cents which were mentioned, were graded to a completely different standard, and did not warrant the grades they received. >>



Mark,

Those wreath cents have received a lot of bashing here on the boards. Have you personally examined them up close to formulate your opinion? The MS69BN coin was on display in Long Beach this past June, and I overheard a comment from one sharp dealer saying it "looked like a freakin' medal!" Did you see the coin at the show?

--Cardinal

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>In the vast majority of cases, once a bronze coin has mellowed to "BN", it doesn't display enough luster and eye-appeal to warrant a 67 (or higher grade). Still, over the years, I have seen a few which I thought were deserving.

Personally, I think that the Wreath Cents which were mentioned, were graded to a completely different standard, and did not warrant the grades they received. >>



Mark,

Those wreath cents have received a lot of bashing here on the boards. Have you personally examined them up close to formulate your opinion? The MS69BN coin was on display in Long Beach this past June, and I overheard a comment from one sharp dealer saying it "looked like a freakin' medal!" Did you see the coin at the show?

--Cardinal >>

Hi Martin, I did not see the MS69BN in hand. But I examined an MS68BN Wreath Cent (and some other very high grade early date Large Cents) years ago. And I did not think they merited such high grades.

Rightly or wrongly, it appears that in a number of instances, some ultra high grade early Large Cents were graded to a very different standard than other later copper coinage. By the way, a coin can look like a "freakin medal" and still not be flawless. : )

Even if we disagree, I always enjoy your posts.

Tortuga

<< <i>One of my goals is to make a Mint State 67BN PCGS Lincoln (wheat cent). Has anyone spoken with PCGS about the chances of them assigning this grade, or does anyone have an opinion?


There are both a PCGS 68BN and a PCGS 69BN 1793 Wreath Cent, so that grade seems theoretically possible.

There are four PCGS 67BN Matte Proof Lincolns in the Population Report.

There is but one lonely PCGS 67BN Mint State Indian Cent, but there is one. (though it could be a clerical error with no 66BNs and no 67RB's for that date 1893).

But Sadly, there are ZERO PCGS 67BN Mint State Lincoln Cents in the Population Report.

In effect I'm asking "what gives?"

And I'm asking what is holding graders back from assigning 67BN to a mint state lincoln? Is it that the series is not old enough? Meaning are brown lincolns automatically deducted for having become toned in a relatively short period of time , whereas the 200 year old coins are not?

I'm very very curious. >>





In my opinion, there have been grading variances when considering grades for brown mint state copper. I have stated before in a previous post on the forum that when grading mint state Lincolns, Bns should be compared to Bns, Rbs to Rbs, and Rds to Rds. How can one grade a Bn mint state Lincoln and then grade that coin compared to a Rd standard? Not possible. If a grader has an idea as to "look" of gem Bn mint state Lincoln, then I think it would be possible for a grader to recognize a coin for its inherent superior quality. I think a look at some Bn Lincolns would make this post a little clearer for those non Lincoln collectors. I will post some coins from my set, and you be the judge.

First, I'll post the ordinary:








And now, the superior:

lusterlover

Tortuga,

I predict some plusses in your future..

JoeV

Coppercolor,

This a great thread you started here. The low pops of MS 66 & 67 RB & BN is very interesting to me. It would be nice to have some sort of definition of what it takes to get a MS67BN or RB Lincoln or Indian. The 67BN Indian out there is probably a stunning coin if it actually all there. I would not factor in the MPL's in 67BN or RB in the conversation because they are proofs.

It seems that toning on copper limits the grade rather than increases it. But on silver or nickel coins color can give the extra 1/2 point to bump up the grade. Why the differing guideline???

Below is one of my Indian graded 66RB (also photosealed by Eagle Eye Rare Coins). I thought this had a shot a 66RB + or slim chance at 67RB. Since it didn't get either I don't have much hope for 67BN or RB. I also own an 1899 Indian PCGS 66RB (with Eagle Eye Photoseal) that is extremely highend coin but does not have the look of the coin below. I purchased it from a very reputable dealer in a NGC 66RB holder and sent it raw to PCGS. As per the dealer, the coin was in an NGC 67RB holder and the collector cracked it out hoping for a 67RD. It came back 66RB. The NGC pop report confirms the story. I wish I had a nice pic of the 1899 to post to show the comparison.

http://www.pcgs.com/TrueView/Medium/16477899.jpg

Coppercolor

Thank you JoeV, glad you find it interesting. I'm not much for making compelling posts around here so even a blind squirrel.....

That is a wicked, wicked 1979. Not sure I find more than two tiny imperfections in all. Strike is all there, so there must be something else that held it to 66RB twice. Which I'm guessing is PCGS's X factor -what I've heard some guys refer to as "a look". I don't know, this one seems to have quite a look. When you tilt the coin away from the light does it have a tan toning haze over the surfaces? Either way, that thing is spectacular and very normal for a lincoln or indian to make a full point drop going from NGC to PCGS. I've taken that drop many times, gladly really because I value PCGS's opinion of copper by far more than NGC.


Tortuga,
As usual, awesome coins. I hoped you would weigh in, particularly since you seem to be holding half the world's finest brown lincolns! That 14P is just awesome. A couple carbon spots away from perfection.

J

golfer72

The 23 and the 20D are RB!

LeeG

<< <i>Coppercolor,

This a great thread you started here. The low pops of MS 66 & 67 RB & BN is very interesting to me. It would be nice to have some sort of definition of what it takes to get a MS67BN or RB Lincoln or Indian. The 67BN Indian out there is probably a stunning coin if it actually all there. I would not factor in the MPL's in 67BN or RB in the conversation because they are proofs.

It seems that toning on copper limits the grade rather than increases it. But on silver or nickel coins color can give the extra 1/2 point to bump up the grade. Why the differing guideline???

Below is one of my Indian graded 66RB (also photosealed by Eagle Eye Rare Coins). I thought this had a shot a 66RB + or slim chance at 67RB. Since it didn't get either I don't have much hope for 67BN or RB. I also own an 1899 Indian PCGS 66RB (with Eagle Eye Photoseal) that is extremely highend coin but does not have the look of the coin below. I purchased it from a very reputable dealer in a NGC 66RB holder and sent it raw to PCGS. As per the dealer, the coin was in an NGC 67RB holder and the collector cracked it out hoping for a 67RD. It came back 66RB. The NGC pop report confirms the story. I wish I had a nice pic of the 1899 to post to show the comparison.

http://www.pcgs.com/TrueView/Medium/16477899.jpg >>

JoeV

LeeG,

Thanks for Posting the pic, muich appreciated.

Copper Color,

Yes, the coin does have the haze.... I think they call it the coins "skin"... if that is the right term.

PawPaul

I just love that turtle feller's 25-S !!!!!!!!!!!

PCcoins

The 1914 posted by Tortuga is amazing! Should be in a 66 holder for sure, it really looks like an MPL to me!

Tortuga

Thanks Lusterlover, PawPaul, and PCcoins for your kind comments. The intent of my reply to Coppercolor's OP was to show
the wide variances that exist in graded gem mint state bn Lincolns. To be sure, the total population of gem bn mint state
Lincolns is very small compared to its rd/rb brethren, and that is how it should logically exist. Especially when considering the
rolls and rolls of 30's, 40's, and 50's Lincolns that were saved that were later submitted to obtain the coveted 67 and 68 grades.

If you think about it, the chance of a gem early date Lincoln (teens and twenties) being saved, allowing to mellow to brown over
the years unmolested while acquiring natural beautiful color is very, very small. Among those survivors there exist some high
quality examples that have already been graded gem bn. So, it is my belief that if a 67bn Lincoln will come from this group. If
graders compared bns to bns, then I am sure a 67 bn will come.

Tortuga

BTW, Coppercolor thanks for talking about and starting this post. It needed to be addressed.

Also, thanks for your kind comments.

LeeG

Here's a few nice BN's I should have held on to:

PCcoins

Again, Love that 1914 Lee!