HELP: Buyer wants a refund ...

deansmint

I sold an item on ebay which wasn’t a coin but is the equivalent of this story, I need an opinion. Say you sold a coin to a buyer on ebay, and the buyer received the coin and stated that it wasn’t as described and requested a refund. You promptly offer a refund and receive the coin a few days later. On receipt you notice the coin has been removed from its packaging and dipped, scrubbed, or altered. What is your recourse through ebay and paypal? Do you send the coin back to the buyer and decline the refund. How to you prove to ebay and paypal that the coin was returned not as received, or will they even listen? Has anyone gone through this scenario, Thanks.

PonyPuller

Did you have a stated return policy which requires that the returned item be in the same condition as originally shipped / sealed, etc.?

Not that it would solve the problem, but it might help give you a foundation for refusing the refund or only issuing a partial refund.

- Mark

coinguy1

Hopefully the item was imaged in the listing, and you can shoot an image of it now with its changed/different appearance.

pheh

I've had this occur with currency. Literally taken out of the holder and folded and then returned as "Not as described." Nothing I could do other than refund and block.

291fifth

<< <i>Hopefully the item was imaged in the listing, and you can shoot an image of it now with its changed/different appearance.


>>

notwilight

Because of the delicate nature of a collectible coin, it would be widely understood that a coin that had been damaged as such would not be returnable.

Is the item that you sold similar? For example, if you sold a bicycle and they scrubbed it with brillo and put hairline scratches it it they could claim they improved it by cleaning it. This would be much less clear to the ebay/paypal observer than cleaning a coin where you can find many references to provide them on the damage caused by cleaning. --Jerry

deansmint

The item that I sold was a painting. The buyer removed the painting from the frame, the brackets were completely pulled off and bent. It seems as in trying to put the painting back into the frame, the buyer cracked the frame and damaged the painting, quite extensively. He didnt even try and put the brackets back on, so when the box was recieved by me, the painting was actually lose in the box outside the frame. I can only imagine that this was something this guy had to of done drunk or something. I have photos of the frame and painting before I sent the item which show it as in perfect condition, and took photos immediately after recieving showing the damage. Im not one to get upset over little things, but this is so blatantly obvious that the guy screwed this peice up messing with it and tried to return it to me. I only use a coin as an example as this is a coin forum, and Im hoping there is someone who has had something like this happen. and prevailed through ebay. If I send the photos to ebay, will they entertain the argument?

deansmint

<< <i>I've had this occur with currency. Literally taken out of the holder and folded and then returned as "Not as described." Nothing I could do other than refund and block. >>



Did you try and argue your case with ebay and were unsuccesful, or did you just decide it wasnt worth it? Thanks.

Ahrensdad

I would take lots of pics, refuse the refund and get ready for a fight. You may also want to move money out of your paypal account for a while assuming they paid via paypal. Perhaps you should contact ebay and get their perspective.

Andrew



PS: I've never sold anything on Ebay, so what do I know.

pennyannie

Reguardless you will lose. it is just the way it is.

How much money is involved?

The best you can hope for is that ebay will refund the money and ask that you send them the painting. I have had this happen on a 700 dollar item that i sold (non coin). The buyer took the item apart and could not put it back together. The buyer them took it to a repair store and was quoted 250 dollars to fix it. First he wanted a discount, i said no. The scond contact he made with me said the item arrived broken 30 days earilier and wanted to return the item.

I called paypal BEFORE any claim was made to see if they would back me up. They claimed they would back me and refuse the refund if he admitted he took the item apart or that he took it to a repair shop and they took it apart to write a repair estimate.

He finally filed a claim and i goated him hard enough to admit he took it apart. I was happy cause he admitted it in writing. BOOM!!! Paypal decided to refund anyway.

Days go by and still the item does not come back and the buyer did not upload the tracking info as required. He missed the deadline to send the item back under paypals policy, so paypal gave me the money back.

4 days after i got my money back i get a UPS delivery from the guy. I refused the delivery. ( I was in town and my local ups driver saw me and said i had a package and it would save her time to do it now.) I thought i did the right theing.

I make it back home latter that even and see a message from Ebay. The buyer of the 700 dollar item appealed and no Ebay says he wins and there goes the money again. I WAS LIVID as now i am out the 700 and the took apart item. I called Ebay and by the time the call was over they refunded my money and paid the guy out of Ebays personal account. In the end the buyer kept the item and the money.

To this day i really have no clue if the item was broken or not. I think the guy originally felt he overpaid and wanted a partial refund and went to great lengths to make up a story.

When i originally talked to paypal i was ready to just refund the buyer 150 dollars and go down the road BUT paypal told me they had my back.

If this ever happens again i will either bite and bullet and make a partial refund if i do not want to mess with the returned item or over a full refund with shipping and redo it. I have no faith in paypal anymore.

pheh

I made my rep aware of it in order for them to investigate any potential pattern with the buyer. I had no expectation that my particular case would be evaluated for coverage – and it wasn't.

deansmint

Penny,
Thanks, I guess thats the answer I was looking for. Sounds like its a lose-lose, probably not worth the time and headaches for $600. Plus the shipping each way is $80, sounds like the post office wins in this one. I do have the item back, but its definately not saleable in this condition. Thanks for the story.

coinguy1

<< <i>Penny,
Thanks, I guess thats the answer I was looking for. Sounds like its a lose-lose, probably not worth the time and headaches for $600. Plus the shipping each way is $80, sounds like the post office wins in this one. I do have the item back, but its definately not saleable in this condition. Thanks for the story. >>

If that happened to me, I would not give up without a fight. If you haven't already done so, you might check out the buyer on toolhaus.org. , just in case there is any evidence of a pattern of such conduct on his part.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>Penny,
Thanks, I guess thats the answer I was looking for. Sounds like its a lose-lose, probably not worth the time and headaches for $600. Plus the shipping each way is $80, sounds like the post office wins in this one. I do have the item back, but its definately not saleable in this condition. Thanks for the story. >>

If that happened to me, I would not give up without a fight. If you haven't already done so, you might check out the buyer on toolhaus.org. , just in case there is any evidence of a pattern of such conduct on his part. >>

I agree with Mark.

Don;t give up just yet especially since it appears the fella took the painting out of the frame and damaged it. You now have a POC that you cannot sell!

Question: Is there ANY possibility that the item was damaged in transit back to you?

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Penny,
Thanks, I guess thats the answer I was looking for. Sounds like its a lose-lose, probably not worth the time and headaches for $600. Plus the shipping each way is $80, sounds like the post office wins in this one. I do have the item back, but its definately not saleable in this condition. Thanks for the story. >>

If that happened to me, I would not give up without a fight. If you haven't already done so, you might check out the buyer on toolhaus.org. , just in case there is any evidence of a pattern of such conduct on his part. >>

I agree with Mark.

Don;t give up just yet especially since it appears the fella took the painting out of the frame and damaged it. You now have a POC that you cannot sell!

Question: Is there ANY possibility that the item was damaged in transit back to you? >>

And if it was damaged in transit, that problem would be between the buyer and the shipper.

derryb

Unfortunately if buyer has proof that you received the return, ebay will side with buyer. Pictures before and after will not matter. At least out the buyer so the rest of us can hopefully avoid him.

Ebay needs to develop a "returned item not in same condition as shipped item" for the benefit of good sellers who get ripped off by the only loophole in seller protection: Item not as described. On second thought there is one other loophole for sellers to get ripped: Chargeback on credit card long after the sale.

grip

You never mentioned if you insured the painting?

Casman

Just curious, but which company did you use for the shipping? I just shipped a painting via fedex 2 day and shipping was $175.00, I was a bit shocked at the cost but that was what my buyer wanted. Fedex however doesn't insure art, or at least thats what I was told.

Mine didn't even have a frame or glass. Total weight they indicated at 8 lbs..

notwilight

Paypal has become sensitive to the motive of buyers making a return. If you can show good evidence of your claim that he took it apart and damaged it and then decided to return it (and that shouldn't be hard), then I think paypal will support you. --Jerry

djdilliodon

If i sell a raw coin no returns accepted unless its someone i dealt with many times and trust. If i sell a slabbed coin 3 day return priv.

deansmint

The item was shipped and insured through ups from me to the buyer. The buyer return shipped the painting to me with ups. I have written an email to the buyer relating my concerns with the condition of and damage to the painting, and worded my email as to insinuate that the painting must have been badly damaged during transit. I have inquired as to whether he had fully insured the painting, and forwarded him photos of the current condition (along with photos as it existed before I had sent it to him.) Although the box wasnt in the best shape upon reciept, the brackets that hold the painting to the frame were pried backwards and twisted with the painting lose outside the frame. I cant imagine this being anything related to shipping. I guess Im hoping that he has fully insured it, or didnt and the culpability lies with him. Eitherway, I have recieved a painting that is unsalable in its current condition and am not sure I should be the one left holding the bag.

coinguy1

<< <i>The item was shipped and insured through ups from me to the buyer. The buyer return shipped the painting to me with ups. I have written an email to the buyer relating my concerns with the condition of and damage to the painting, and worded my email as to insinuate that the painting must have been badly damaged during transit. I have inquired as to whether he had fully insured the painting, and forwarded him photos of the current condition (along with photos as it existed before I had sent it to him.) Although the box wasnt in the best shape upon reciept, the brackets that hold the painting to the frame were pried backwards and twisted with the painting lose outside the frame. I cant imagine this being anything related to shipping. I guess Im hoping that he has fully insured it, or didnt and the culpability lies with him. Eitherway, I have recieved a painting that is unsalable in its current condition and am not sure I should be the one left holding the bag. >>

You're "not sure I should be the one left holding the bag"? Don't be a wimp Your polite, but firm attitude should be more along the lines of "I'm sure I shouldn't be the one left holding the bag".

Barry

I would take lots of pics, refuse the refund and get ready for a fight. You may also want to move money out of your paypal account for a while assuming they paid via paypal.

I agree. Empty your Paypal acct. Also, empty the bank account tied to the PP account. You're in for a big fight, but don't back down.
I once bought something on Ebay listed as a US seller. Item came from China and was counterfeit. It took about 4 months for me to get my money back.

pennyannie

I have read on here for years how you guys have dealt with ebay issues. I stood my ground, and got a negitive out of it. ( of course i sold to a new ebayer with 14 feedbacks. lol)

You can only fight on principal for so long. Your wallet takes a hit at some point.

I spent a few hours on that issue i posted earilier, i could have at one point just paid him 150 and turned the corner. There are plenty of scammers running around, i just do not want to deal with more than my fair share of them.

OP- You were done wrong for sure, is there any type of value left in the returned item? To be resold and close the door? Since you have the item back i do not see paypal pulling the guys money back out of his account. I would try to get ebay's money though. If you can get extremely lucky and get a live person that can actually make a descision on the phone, you might get some where.

I went from selling coins for more than 3k to coins that top out at 500 to reduce my chances of getting burned. I am starting to rethink that now. 1 thing i do keep in mind is i can take a few hits due to the fact i do this from home and do not have the expenses a conventional store does.

SamByrd

<< <i>The item was shipped and insured through ups from me to the buyer. The buyer return shipped the painting to me with ups. I have written an email to the buyer relating my concerns with the condition of and damage to the painting, and worded my email as to insinuate that the painting must have been badly damaged during transit. I have inquired as to whether he had fully insured the painting, and forwarded him photos of the current condition (along with photos as it existed before I had sent it to him.) Although the box wasnt in the best shape upon reciept, the brackets that hold the painting to the frame were pried backwards and twisted with the painting lose outside the frame. I cant imagine this being anything related to shipping. I guess Im hoping that he has fully insured it, or didnt and the culpability lies with him. Eitherway, I have recieved a painting that is unsalable in its current condition and am not sure I should be the one left holding the bag. >>



UPS and Fedex do not insure original art. I have shipped several hundred paintings the last 10 years. They will also look at the packaging if a claim is made. They will deny the claim on both the basis of the packaging and the fact that original art is not insurable by them. You may have to go after the buyer directly if he is close enough to you small claims may be your only option at least this can be listed on his credit report so he may pay the judgement.

You should send a demand letter to the buyer after the pay pal process is over. The person may settle with you as he is aware of what happened to the painting in his hands. I hope it works out as it is a really bad and unfair situation you are in.

BAJJERFAN

So what protection does a seller really have against buyers like this? Other than not selling on eBay? Even if you videotape the packaging of an item [unless you do it in front of a USPS employee] that doesn't prove anything since those can be faked too.

What eBay/PayPal needs is an independent arbitrator who doesn't favor one side or the other.

Also what is SO BAD about one negative feedback? Is it ok to state in your listing that the neg was because you stood up to a scammer?