Fake 2010 Silver Pandas and eBay Indifference

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Here is a photo of a counterfeit 2010 1 oz. silver Panda next to a real one. The genuine coin is on the right.



Notice (1) how high up the Yuan symbol on the counterfeit is, (2) the textures in the fur and (3) the uneven spacing between the letters.

I've started a web page, Bad Bears: The Panda Counterfeit Report, to help collectors identify counterfeit Panda coins. It shows photos of fakes next to genuine coins like the one above. This information is particularly timely because there is one eBay member who has sold more than 300 counterfeit coins and silver bars in the last couple of weeks. eBay has failed to take action against this fraud despite emails and calls from numerous collectors and dealers.

Panda fakes are not hard to spot when you know what to look for—they tend to be not very well made.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
pandacollector.com

wybrit

As nice a public service as that is, there is an unintended consequence of it. The fakes may not be well made, but that information will be harvested by the counterfeiters and their process will improve.

I find it rather ironic that coins from a nation full of counterfeiters are themselves being counterfeited. Will that mean that there will be a crackdown on the fake makers? Probably not.

JCMhouston

It appears that as long as ebay gets their percentage they really don't care about the fakes.

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EBay's priorities seem apparent enough if you look at their process to report counterfeits. They offer no clear directions for reporting fake coins, or other collectibles for that matter. On the other hand there are lots of questions about copyright and trademark infringements. No doubt because the holders of these rights usually have lawyers following close behind them. Given eBay's reluctance to act against sellers of counterfeit coins, it appears they consider paying off an occasional collector who recognizes a fake as just a cost of doing business. In the meantime they rake in as many listing fees and commissions as they can. It's not a pretty picture but the Roman who "coined" the phrase caveat emptor would feel right at home. By the way, I've never lost a cent on eBay since I started in 1998 so this isn't sour grapes but an appraisal of how they seem to do business.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

GRANDAM

Do you know what the fake coins weigh?

Can't see much money in faking the 2010 Silver Panda unless they are silver plated in which case the weight should be way off.

GrandAm

edited to add,,,

"This information is particularly timely because there is one eBay member who has sold more than 300 counterfeit coins and silver bars in the last couple of weeks."

Are you talking about the guy selling Year 2000 Mirror Panda's for $22 ea?

Lancastercoin

I appreciate your efforts on the website. However, I think the most effective thing you could do is not focus on known counterfeits but instead focus on the genuine coins. After all, the number of potential counterfeit dies and molds is infinite. Cataloging known fakes is generally not that effective for that reason, and most major numismatic organizations that used to publish guides along these lines have quit doing so. Most casual buyers wouldn't consult a list before purchasing, while more advanced buyers wouldn't be deceived by such crudities. Well executed, deceptive counterfeits that are made to fool advanced collectors generally don't reveal themselves by comparison photography unless it's in high enough resolution to show die tooling marks and the like.

However, a photographic list of the genuine pandas by dies would be fantastic! With mintages, varieties, guesses at relative scarcity between varieties - wow. I'd visit all the time, and so would many other people. That is something that as far as I know is not currently available anywhere on the internet. I could also perhaps provide some pics for varieties if you'd like.

I often have the unfortunate experience of telling someone "your coin is fake" after barely glancing at the coin. Typically right after that they ask "How do you know?" to which I generally reply "I see the real thing every day". Although there are many fine points to counterfeit detection (and I'm far from an expert) I think the best way to spot a fake is by experiencing the genuine article many times.

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Aaron,

You raise a lot of issues. I quite agree with you that experience is a very valuable, probably the most valuable, element in recognizing fake coins. It's what every buyer should have. It does take a while to acquire, though, and a newcomer can have plenty of bad experiences in the meantime. Many buyers of Pandas clearly don't know too much about the coins. After all, these coins are designed to be attractive and appealing, so many people start by dabbling in the area. Of course, they don't pick up on the clues that a seasoned numismatist would. The information on Bad Bears is particularly aimed at buyers who are learning about Pandas. I've received several emails from people who learned that their eBay purchases are fakes because they saw the photos and descriptions on Bad Bears. They are now trying to get their money back from PayPal. This encourages me to think that continuing to post whatever I can about bogus Pandas is worth the effort.

You mention, "a photographic list of the genuine pandas by dies would be fantastic! With mintages, varieties, guesses at relative scarcity between varieties - wow." Well, without I hope blowing my own horn too loudly, those are things that are all in my book the Gold and Silver Panda Buyer's Guide. It includes photos of all the Large and Small Date varieties, estimates and comments on their relative scarcity and, in many cases, numerical estimates of how many coins for each variety now survive. There's a sample chapter you can look through on pandacollector.com. The book is available directly from me at pandacollector.com, or from PandaAmerica, or Amazon (when I can keep them in stock there). OK, end of self-promotion.

By the way, if anyone has some fake coins they would like to loan me so I can photograph, weigh and post them, please let me know. It really annoys me to have to pay the turkeys who peddle this garbage in order to get an example.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

cacheman

If they're silver of the proper weight then what difference does it make...they're just bullion after all.

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They are silver plated not silver. Inside is copper or an alloy of base metals. A lot of dates sell for way more than bullion prices, whereas a fake will always be worthless.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

GRANDAM

<< <i>They are silver plated not silver. Inside is copper or an alloy of base metals. A lot of dates sell for way more than bullion prices, whereas a fake will always be worthless.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com >>



Do you know what they weigh?

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Not yet for these specific coins; I'll post it when I get one weighed. A copper-filled Panda usually weighs about a bit over 26 grams. Personally, I wouldn't rely on weight to confirm or disprove whether the coin is silver. Take a look at this photo of a phony silver bar that weighed the correct amount but practically blew up in an acid test: Chinese Coin Forum.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

sbeverly

If they're silver of the proper weight then what difference does it make...they're just bullion after all

They have a relative small mintage with a ever increasing collector base. It's my personal experience that the increasingly affluent Chinese
collectors are buying this series in a very serious way. This has driven the price upwards.

Granted, the 2010, as of now sells for a slight premium over melt but, the earlier coins have risen dramatically.

I would hate to see the collector enthusiasm wane because of counterfeits.

I applaud Peter's efforts to, at the very minimum, promote an attitude of caveat emptor.

Lancastercoin

I have seen your Panda book and liked it. I use the mainland China one myself but I would certainly buy yours if I needed one in English. My comments were geared towards an online list though. It's only a matter of time until such content as your book contains is all over the internet for free. Don't you want to be the guy who gets the ad revenue from that? I think a site that had the info in the form of .swf or .jpg (so it couldn't be easily saved or cut-n-pasted) would generate a lot of hits. (Not sure if this argument is convincing, but it's worth a try anyway - I'm sure not typing it all up!)

To the inquiry about weights - I have had results between 25-33g when weighing fake pandas. Sorry I didn't take notes or I'd report more accurately. I rarely bother weighing them these days though, and you've got to think that they'll all be 31.1 soon enough.

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Aaron,
Thanks for the kind words about my book and I'm glad your Chinese catalog has the information you need. I can't restrain myself from saying that – for me – the highlight of the Gold and Silver Panda Buyer's Guide is the B.U. survival rate figures that were developed for the book. These are original and appear nowhere else. Because so many of them differ significantly from the original mintages, they address a gap in the information that has been available. I've had conversations with very experienced dealers and collectors who confirmed that they knew certain issues were scarce but couldn't quantify it. The Gold and Silver Panda Buyer's Guide does. For some of the fractional sizes that were never popular, particularly the 1/2 and 1/4 oz. golds, the writing process has kind of felt like being an explorer who fills in the blank spots of an old map with details. Same for the date varieties. I've seen Pandas that appear for sale only once every two or three years yet were barely bid on when they did turn up. Anyway, it was a huge amount of work to research and decipher but I've never had more fun in close to 50 years in numismatics.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

GRANDAM

Are there any accurate mintages for the 1/2 & 1 oz Silver Panda's posted in the book?

If so on what page?

Thanks, GrandAm

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The one oz. B.U. silver Pandas from 1989 - 2005 all come with my current population estimates and the official mintage figures. That makes it easy to compare them. The book is organized so that each year has its own chapter and that's where you find the information. Population estimates for the 1/2 oz. silver coins should be in the next edition.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

Lancastercoin

Grandam - for mintages I use: www.china-mint.info

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Negative feedbacks for colorful8876 may have triggered an identity shuffle among eBay counterfeit sellers. There are a couple of new sellers of the exact same junk: soul.hk and updang1. SHUN THESE SELLERS-the photos they display are of fakes. It is quite possible that these sellers are all part of the same operation and that the bad feedbacks have caused them to switch names. It is also possible that these kinds of bogus Pandas has become widely distributed and copycat sellers are jumping in grab part of the gravy for themselves. The best strategy for buyers is to know what real Pandas look like and to know the characteristics of fake ones. This is not very hard as comparison photos can be found online. The one thing to not do is to rely on eBay to protect you. There is plenty of evidence that this type of fraud is a low priority for them.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com/fakes