Email about Additions to the All Time Packer set...discussion wanted.

jradke4

Well I got the following email like all those that collect the All Time Packer team set.

snip
We have received a request to add 3 players to the All-Time Packers set.
In consideration to all of the registrants in this category, we would like to poll you on this request.

1. Bill Howton – 1952 Bowman #21
2. Dave Robinson – 1967 Philadelphia #8
3. Donald Driver – 1999 Fleer Focus #118

Please reply with a yes or no choice for each player.

While all three a great players I dont think either warrant addition based on the standard that we have set for the All Time Packers set. All are in (or will be for the case of Driver) in the Packers HOF set.

While I dont need to know who requested them I would like to find out if anyone thinks they should be added and if that is the case do people want to change the standards for this set. I would like to hear the arguement made for each players case and why they should be in based on those already in the set. It would be nice if these things are debated on the boards prior to someone requesting changes.

Jay

alifaxwa2

Not doing the set, but I am curious, is there 2 packer sets; Packers HOF and All-time Packers? Am I reading what you wrote correctly? If so, what is supposed to be the difference?

jradke4

there are two sets.

one is the all-time packer set, which mainly has Pro Football HOF caliber players. the cards for this set are the players rookie card.

the other is the Packer HOF set. the Packers have their own HOF and a voting panel that selects new members. this set has the players/coaches first card with the Packers in the set.

FavreFan1971

I saw the email too Jay. As for adding players to the All - Time Packer Set I one for sure should go in. Dave Robinson.

As for the premise of the Packers All Time set I think both of these players fit in well with the others listed on the set. Robinson is on the PSA HOF Senior list here. He was member of the 1960's all decade team and receives votes for the HOF. If he is HOF material on the Senior set and also gets votes, I say let him in. I have not looked, but are there any other HOF Senior or Modern that are not listed in their teams all time sets?

Donald Driver is the All-Time leader for the Packers in receptions and 2nd in receiving yards (600 short of James Lofton.) Is that enough to garner addition to this set? The guy has had 6 straight 1000 yard seasons but he has not been dominant league wide to get my vote. If he lights it up for 80 catches and 1200 the next two years and ends up in the top 25 all time for yards and receptions I may need to change my vote. I my opinion though, a modern player does not need to be on the HOF Modern set to be considered for the All - Time set of their respective team.

Howton was a great player and if I am not mistaken when he retired he was the all time leader in receptions and yards, passing another Packer great, Don Hutson. But he never got the HOF votes for some reason, heck we don't even have him on our HOF Senior set.

So, long story short. Howton, no - Driver no - Robinson yes

I have not voted yet to the email and will vote with what the majority comes up with here.

epatmythes

I voted no to Bill Howton... but I did vote yes to Dave Robinson and Donald Driver.

Here is my thought process...

Initially, I wanted to vote NO on all three. Before being so rash to just reply with that, I figured I should at least consider the make up of the set.

To me, Bill Howton was a no-brainer NO vote. He was a good early-day receiver, but has consistently failed to get into the HOF, even given his stats of his time. It's almost like someone just wanted a 52 Bowman in the set... easy vote, NO!

Dave Robinson was definitely a legendary Packer, although, not a Hall of Famer... but definitely an All-Time Packer. I'm still leaning toward NO.

Now, Donald Driver is a current player... but he does hold (or is on the verge of holding) nearly every Packers receiving record. If any of the three are deserving, it's Donald Driver... but I'm still leaning towards NO!

But wait, I believe Ahman Green is in the All-Time Packers registry set. Maybe I should look at the full composite before sending in my vote(s). Aww heck, look at that... Max McGee, Jerry Kramer, Sterling Sharpe, and Leroy Butler are already in there too!

Okay... so hell yeah, Donald Driver deserves to be in the set if those guys are already in there. So, I'm thinking Dave Robinson belongs too. Still saying No to Bill Howton though (and actually thinking, how do we get Max McGee, Leroy Butler, and maybe even Ahman Green taken out of the set too!!!).

So that's my thoughts and those were my votes... Donald Driver & Dave Robinson, YES... Bill Howton, NO!

FavreFan1971

Don't forget Ahman is the Packers all time leading rusher. Butler deserves to be in. Max McGee should be replaced by Boyd Dowler in my opinion.

epatmythes

That's why I threw the "maybe" in front of Ahman in my statement. He's one of those guys I look at and think, sure, he's the All-Time leading rusher but I still have a hard time thinking of him as an All-Time Packer.

jradke4

well when i first read the email my initial reaction was no to all three. i have done some thinking based on this discussion and what the set is composed of at present.

right now there are 7 players not in the Pro Football HOF.

Max McGee
Jerry Kramer
Fuzzy Thurston
Sterling Sharpe
LeRoy Butler
Brett Favre
Ahman Green

1 will be in for sure. Jerry Kramer is consistently rated as the biggest snub in HOF voting, member both the 60's all decade first team and the 50th NFL Team. Butler suffers from being a Safety but was also on the 90's All Decade First Team, which in all likelyhood may give him a decent shot in the future, its sad how Safeties get overlooked. But basically the same voters whom pick the HOF members voted him best of the Decade. Sharpe, was the most dominat WR behind Rice during his playing career. How many times did you hear in the pregame about how the opposing team just wanted to shut him down but never could. If it wasnt for his career ending neck injury he might be up there for the HOF voting. For RB's we all know these days most of their careers at the top of short lived. At his prime Green was a major RB in the league with the Packers. When he left he was only a couple hundred yards, if that away from being the all time leading rusher in team history. All those yards, other than the last few, came with him in his prime and near the top of the heap of NFL rushers. To me the weakest links are McGee and Thurston, with Fuzzy the weakest. More than likely they are in the set from being on the teams from the 60's that were so dominant. However, a look through receiving records and McGee is up there, but then again so is Freeman. A while back JasP had a listing of players, I think by position, and Freeman was rated one ahead of McGee.

Considering that McGee and Thurston are in the set to stay...since they cant be removed we will have to take that into consideration. Do we want more players like a Fuzzy (I dont). McGee is the tougher one.

As for the current list. Howton is an easy no.

Robinson, while a great player I think needs to wait until he makes the Pro Football HOF to be added to this set. Yes he gets consideration for HOF like Kramer but lacks that 1st Team All Decade spot. Butler has that. Green and Sharpe dont but they I think were more dominant league wide while playing for the Packers, get Pro-Bowls and all pro selections. Robinson, doesnt always stand out as a name among the LB's of his time but he did have 3 probowls and 1 AllPro.

Driver, is the same almost like Robinson...but we at least can compare him to 2 other WR in the set that arent in the HOF. Sharpe, was a 5 time probowler and 5 time all pro selection. For most of Sharpe's career there really wasnt much else to the WR corp other than him. McGee had 1 probowl. Driver has 3 probowls and 1 allpro putting him right in between the two. Unlike Sharpe he has been with a group of WR that are much better and teams dont focus their defense his way like they did with Sharpe. Yes DD is closing in on Sharpe's number but he has played in 43 more games (almost 3 more years). Sharpe's numbers show that he caught one more ball a game for an additional 14 yards more per game. His TD rate per game played is double that of DD.

That said I think the All Time Packer set needs to be more stringent on whom is put in. While Robinson and Driver are almost there I dont feel they warrant selection quite yet. Robinson needs to be put in the HOF first. Driver needs a few more strong seasons and I would put him in.

So right now my votes are against all 3 Howton, Robinson and Driver.

weinhold

Though I am not a registrant in the All-Time Packers Set, I have a different key card set. In response to this thread:

- Good. It's healthy for the Key Card Sets that a cerebral and careful discussion occurs before making set additions. It would be healthier if the discussion took place before the vote even commenced. Once a card is voted in, it's awfully hard to remove that card from the set again.

- Good. Thanks for having a thread that's germane to the subject matter. Unfortunately, many Football Key Card posts are nonsensically buried in the Football HOF RCs Thread.

FavreFan1971

So, for those who are registered on this set. We need to vote to put cards in or not.

Right now Jay and I are the only two on the set discussing this and the votes are

Dave Robinson - 3
Donald Drive - 3
Billy Howton - 0

Max votes 4

Those who voted

Jradke
Favrefan
Ryan's set
epatmythe

rhilbeli

Hi guys - new to the forums, but on the All Time Packers registry - Ryan's All Time Packers

First I will start by saying I did not request the additions. I had been thinking that Driver was due up for consideration soon and think he deserves to be included based on prior inclusions. Granted, I was not around when LeRoy Butler or Ahman Green came up for inclusion.

Also my vote on Dave Robinson would be yes given number of seasons with Packers, all decade team, and number of championships.

Bill Howton would get a no.

Just my 2 cents

Thanks

epatmythes

<< <i>So, for those who are registered on this set. We need to vote to put cards in or not.

Right now Jay and I are the only two on the set discussing this and the votes are

Dave Robinson - 2
Donald Drive - 2
Billy Howton - 0

Max votes 3

Those who voted

Jradke
Favrefan
Ryan's set >>



I guess I'm invisible.... there are sets below the default 20 shown when you pull up the set page

jradke4

<< <i>

<< <i>So, for those who are registered on this set. We need to vote to put cards in or not.

Right now Jay and I are the only two on the set discussing this and the votes are

Dave Robinson - 2
Donald Drive - 2
Billy Howton - 0

Max votes 3

Those who voted

Jradke
Favrefan
Ryan's set >>



I guess I'm invisible.... there are sets below the default 20 shown when you pull up the set page >>



No Troy counted your votes.

jradke4

The bigger question is are people around to respond to either the email or this thread. What a crappy time to send out a vote, the week before the 4th.

I will email the Ladies to see if they might extend the voting deadline with the holiday. Either way I am putting my votes in now to make sure they get in. I would reccomend that others that are solid on their votes do the same.

rhilbeli

Any update on this? How long do the votes usually take?

Thanks

FavreFan1971

Usually pretty quick turnaround, 2 weeks or a majority of the set owners voted one way.

jradke4

no its three weeks i was informed. so everyone vote soon.