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Would you cross this CBH to a PCGS holder and what would it cross at?
Southcounty
Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭
A week or so ago I made an impulse buy on a CBH that I thought looked like a nice MS example with some frosty and pleasantly toned surfaces that happened to be in an NGC AU58 holder. As per usual we all buy the coin and not the holder, especially when you can get a coin for a few hundred dollars that has a few thousand dollar look to it.
I am getting ready to send in some coins to cross over into PCGS holders and my question is would you attempt to cross this coin and what grade do you think PCGS would cross it at? My only reason for questioning this decision is that the coin is in a new edge view holder, which is ok for lettered edge coins and it has a variety designation, which I would not pay to have designated given that the die marriage is not rare.
Any chance that this coin goes MS? What could look like wear to me on the reverse eagle tallons appears to be strike weakness or perhaps some very light cabinet friction, if you care for that term.
These are my photos:
These are the sellers photos:
Thanks for your thoughts,
Scott
0
Comments
I believe this one is accurately graded at 58 and would sell on it's own merits in either holder, but with the
mentality today it might fetch more in a PCGS holder if your intention is to sell her.
If it is for your own collection why would you consider putting more money into the
coin just to change the company that puts plastic around it? She is in a nice holder and
is protected and authenticated and IMO graded correctly. Why put more money into her bottom line?
leave it. enjoy it.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>Save your money and leave it in its present holder. Why risk a "genuine?" >>
If you send a coin for crossover in its holder, you don't risk a "genuine" designation.
In answer to the original questions posed in this thread (Would you cross this CBH to a PCGS holder and what would it cross at?) - I wouldn't, and it looks like an AU55 to me.
<< <i>The coin is showing some luster breaks on the high points and is a high grade AU coin not a MS example.
I believe this one is accurately graded at 58 and would sell on it's own merits in either holder, but with the
mentality today it might fetch more in a PCGS holder if your intention is to sell her.
If it is for your own collection why would you consider putting more money into the
coin just to change the company that puts plastic around it? She is in a nice holder and
is protected and authenticated and IMO graded correctly. Why put more money into her bottom line? >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
ANA grading standards states " coins minted prior to 1836 often show minor weakness or friction spots even though they
might never have been used in circulation. such coins are difficult to distinguish and are sometimes considered to be MS
rather than AU, when they have superior eye appeal, strike, or appearance."
As to the holder, sometimes I'd like to cross my PCGS bust coins over to NGC ! I like being able to see the lettered edge.
JM
<< <i>I've noticed that many MS graded bust halves have luster breaks and sometimes light rub on the highest points.
ANA grading standards states " coins minted prior to 1836 often show minor weakness or friction spots even though they
might never have been used in circulation. such coins are difficult to distinguish and are sometimes considered to be MS
rather than AU, when they have superior eye appeal, strike, or appearance."
As to the holder, sometimes I'd like to cross my PCGS bust coins over to NGC ! I like being able to see the lettered edge.
JM >>
You have described a manifestation of 'market grading'---this has become trickier to gauge because both NGC and PCGS seem
to have tightened their grading during the last year or so. A Capped Bust half that was generously graded MS61-62 four years ago
may only be graded AU55-58 today. Marks, fullness of strike, luster, and toning all play a role here.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
to have tightened their grading during the last year or so. A Capped Bust half that was generously graded MS61-62 four years ago
may only be graded AU55-58 today. Marks, fullness of strike, and toning all play a role here. >>
Exactly, thats why its still important to be able to, or at least try to grade coins yourself and not just take the assigned grade on the
holder as the last word. Awhile back I bought an MS 63 bust half that was absolutely beautiful, I really wanted to let it reside, but
it had broken luster in two spots and was really an AU coin in my opinion. A really beautiful AU that might be worth 2x retail or something,
but not the MS 63 price. I sent it back.
JM
<< <i>
<< <i>Save your money and leave it in its present holder. Why risk a "genuine?" >>
If you send a coin for crossover in its holder, you don't risk a "genuine" designation.
In answer to the original questions posed in this thread (Would you cross this CBH to a PCGS holder and what would it cross at?) - I wouldn't, and it looks like an AU55 to me. >>
It sounded to me like the OP intended to crack the coin out. His desire would be to get an MS grade from PCGS, so having the coin submitted in an NGC AU58 holder would seem to be risky.
I tend to agree with your AU55 designation but suspect the coin has retoned after having been dipped in the past.
That said, I really like it. It's a very nice looking half.
<< <i>There is a huge holder bias in CBH's. PCGS coins sell for alot more than NGC, ICG, or ANACS coins. I would vote the other way as I do not see the big risk in trying to cross it. Even if you "crossed at any grade," a PCGS AU55 is about the same price as an NGC AU58. >>
If he thinks the coin deserves an unc. grade, I don't thnk it makes sense to submit it for crossover.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Save your money and leave it in its present holder. Why risk a "genuine?" >>
If you send a coin for crossover in its holder, you don't risk a "genuine" designation.
In answer to the original questions posed in this thread (Would you cross this CBH to a PCGS holder and what would it cross at?) - I wouldn't, and it looks like an AU55 to me. >>
It sounded to me like the OP intended to crack the coin out. His desire would be to get an MS grade from PCGS, so having the coin submitted in an NGC AU58 holder would seem to be risky.
I tend to agree with your AU55 designation but suspect the coin has retoned after having been dipped in the past. >>
Understood. Personally, I only use the term "crossover" with respect to coins which are submitted in their holders to a different grading company. However, many others also use it when referring to coins which are cracked out of one company's holder and then submitted to a different company. I call that "grading" not "crossover".
As the Prez pointed out in a previous thread, asking the graders to cross at grade this series looking at the thick plastic, and without a complete view of the edge, means the coin in the other holder will probably need to be high end for grade. Perhaps a full grade point higher than PCGS standards.
But once the coin is viewed raw, it is possible that the grade will be the same as indicated on the other TPG's slab.
If you are wanting to put together a PCGS set( date only) Redbook, Overton variety, I would try to buy the dates you need in PCGS slabs, at least for the easier to obtain dates. This is one of those.
Answer to question- Sure, try a cross at any grade( or minimum AU53).
As for in holder crossing I do tend to look for NGC and ANACS coins with middle grades usually like AU53, 55, and or XF45 and will ask for a cross with a minimum grade that keeps the coin at the AU or XF level in PCGS plastic. In other words I dont mind an NGC AU53 going to PCGS AU50 but I would not want it to jump down from the "AU" level to XF just as I would not mind an XF45 going to PCGS XF40 but I would not risk it going to VF35. At the point where the coin would only cross at the next letter grade designation down I would just as soon keep it in the old holder and sell it as is at some point.
Seated Dollar Collection
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Your downside is limited for a crossover, so if you want it in a PCGS holder then why not do it? The seller knows coins well enough to have attempted a resubmission in the hope of an MS grade if they believed it deserved the MS grade, in my opinion. >>
The "why not do it?" would be because the odds are that it would be throwing moiney away.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The worst thing that could happen is this coin might come back in a AU-55 holder. If you have the time try taking it to a local coin shop and asking what they think about a crossover?
<< <i>Why cross it at all? Beautiful coin in a well protected holder that has been certified both in grade and as genuine. By the time you pay the s/h, insurance, and fee both ways, you have only loaded your bottom end. These days there is a great possibility it could be placed in a genuine holder just because. Your coin, your decision. Great luck.
Jim >>
Jim, he already stated that he would be submitting it for crossover in its current holder. Therefore, it wouldn't be placed in a PCGS "genuine" holder.
Just look at eBay or any other selling venue. An NGC AU58 CBH is a hard sell for full value. Buyers believe, rightly or wrongly, that PCGS knows best or has the right standard in grading CBH's in AU55 and AU58. I just do not see spending $30 on a crossover attempt as wasting money if you think the coin is all there. Sure, it may come back in the NGC slab (or it may cross) but the $30 spent is a form of tuition in the nuances of grading CBH's in AU grades.
NGC grades alot of CBH's in AU58 that have been cleaned and later toned over quite darkly. If this is one of those (I did not look at the pics yet), the super dark NGC AU58 CBH I have found to be a type PCGS does not like much.
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
<< <i>I agree with Tom in this area.
Just look at eBay or any other selling venue. An NGC AU58 CBH is a hard sell for full value. Buyers believe, rightly or wrongly, that PCGS knows best or has the right standard in grading CBH's in AU55 and AU58. I just do not see spending $30 on a crossover attempt as wasting money if you think the coin is all there. Sure, it may come back in the NGC slab (or it may cross) but the $30 spent is a form of tuition in the nuances of grading CBH's in AU grades.
NGC grades alot of CBH's in AU58 that have been cleaned and later toned over quite darkly. If this is one of those (I did not look at the pics yet), the super dark NGC AU58 CBH I have found to be a type PCGS does not like much. >>
Unless postage is free, the total cost is probably closer to $50 than $30. That increases his cost by a significant %. And based on the different standards you noted for PCGS vs. NGC, odds are far less than 50% that the coin will cross at the same grade. If it fails to cross at all, or crosses, but at a grade less than 58, it is probably a losing proposition. I
n most cases, if you want a coin in a PCGS holder, you are better off buying it in the PCGS holder. That beats spending additional money in fighting odds which are stacked against you.
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree with Tom in this area.
Just look at eBay or any other selling venue. An NGC AU58 CBH is a hard sell for full value. Buyers believe, rightly or wrongly, that PCGS knows best or has the right standard in grading CBH's in AU55 and AU58. I just do not see spending $30 on a crossover attempt as wasting money if you think the coin is all there. Sure, it may come back in the NGC slab (or it may cross) but the $30 spent is a form of tuition in the nuances of grading CBH's in AU grades.
NGC grades alot of CBH's in AU58 that have been cleaned and later toned over quite darkly. If this is one of those (I did not look at the pics yet), the super dark NGC AU58 CBH I have found to be a type PCGS does not like much. >>
Unless postage is free, the total cost is probably closer to $50 than $30. That increases his cost by a significant %. And based on the different standards you noted for PCGS vs. NGC, odds are far less than 50% that the coin will cross at the same grade. If it fails to cross at all, or crosses, but at a grade less than 58, it is probably a losing proposition. I
n most cases, if you want a coin in a PCGS holder, you are better off buying it in the PCGS holder. That beats spending additional money in fighting odds which are stacked against you. >>
The postage must be considered on a fractional basis for this coin since it was stated in the first post that a crossover submission for PCGS is already being prepared and this coin would be an addition to the submission. Therefore, the postage aspect adds little to the risk.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Seated Dollar Collection
I see this coin as a PCGS 55, certainly not MS. Good luck!