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Another Artificially Frosted Cameo?
Cameonut
Posts: 7,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am curious what you think about this particular piece. It looks artificially frosted to me. Grade is proof 67 dcam - a $1000 or so coin.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
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<< <i>Looks REAL weird in the field close to the end areas or tips of the tail feathers. Looks like bleed over or whatever. >>
Agreed. The tips of the tail feathers don't look right.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
March of Time - 27 Centuries in Gold
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=36590
If I told you that cert number 21167739 was an artificially frosted cameo I returned to PCGS (which they bought back) - would that change your opinion at all?
I would love to see this coin in hand - I just don't want to shell out the $$. Sure looks suspicious to me.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>The cert number of the Kennedy is 21167736.
If I told you that cert number 21167739 was an artificially frosted cameo I returned to PCGS (which they bought back) - would that change your opinion at all?
I would love to see this coin in hand - I just don't want to shell out the $$. Sure looks suspicious to me. >>
Now don't you know that facts have never stopped us from speculating?
Come on now....
I'll defer to Russ on this one also. He knows his JFK's.
<< <i>
Now don't you know that facts have never stopped us from speculating?
Come on now....
Ahh - you guessed my plan - if I provided all the info in the first post - who would have speculated?
I unknowingly purchased 4 artificially frosted proofs a number of years ago - all in PCGS holders. Both silver coins and the and nickel coin eventually developed the funky blue haze that bled into the fields off of the devices. The copper piece had haze bleeding in the fields.
I'm pretty sure I know where Russ is going to weigh in on this one
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
even I can see it once it's pointed out!
thank you,
bob
50+ years collecting and still enjoying and learning!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Wouldn't haze usually creep into a holder from the edges, rather from the central device itself? >>
I guess it depends on the source of the haze. With coins that are not messed with, I think you are right, it tends to start at the periphery. With AF coins, the haze oozes off of the devices. With coins that are not neutralized after dipping - I have seen the haze start almost anywhere.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>It does look suspicious. I can't tell if the bleed from the tail is an artifact from the image. I always wondered with coins like the AH how much painting was required to move a cam to dcam. I'd imagine the obverse was OK, and the weakness in contrast was on or around the shield. If they use Nickelene, or something similar, I wonder how much of the surface they must paint to get a uniform look? Scary, knowing your experience with the coin's neighbors. >>
How about this?
From this DJVu closeup, it sure doesn't look like an artifact of the image!
I'm also a bit confused over Cameonut's post:
"If I told you that cert number 21167739 was an artificially frosted cameo I returned to PCGS (which they bought back) - would that change your opinion at all?
I would love to see this coin in hand - I just don't want to shell out the $$. Sure looks suspicious to me."
You are implying that you returned the coin yet in the next statement say you'd not shell out the money for the coin??
The cert number is still valid yet the Teletrade Auction records show the coin as Not Sold. but it's being offered again on Monday, June 28th.
I guess I'll assume you are simply speculating, have never seen the coin, and didn't really buy it and return it, and you don't know for sure what the coin looks like.
Right? (It's early)
The name is LEE!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>First time I've heard of this type of doctoring. How are coin artificially frosted? >>
Ancient Chinese Secret
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I'm also a bit confused over Cameonut's post:
"If I told you that cert number 21167739 was an artificially frosted cameo I returned to PCGS (which they bought back) - would that change your opinion at all?
I would love to see this coin in hand - I just don't want to shell out the $$. Sure looks suspicious to me."
You are implying that you returned the coin yet in the next statement say you'd not shell out the money for the coin??
>>
He provided two different certificate numbers.
<< <i>it almost looks like its spray painted on <shrugs> >>
More than likely, it is done with an airbrush and a "masking" template cut from another proof coin. This technique is very much silimar to how baseboards or windows in a house are "masked" off prior to painting the walls but on a much smaller scale.
I could see a skilled craftsman using a Kennedy Proof (which obviously gets destroyed) and cutting a mask with holes where each of the raised devices are and then placing that "mask" over the coin intended for doctoring. The slightest lift on any of the mask would create an overspray. The mask itself could be used multiple times.
A slight misalignment of the mask onto a coin would create what appears below the tail feathers of the OP's subject coin. Nearly imperceptible overspray would also eventually haze a freshly doctored coin and eventually turn color as the material applied ages.
Silver Proof coins are quite tempermental in that ANY contact with the mirrored surfaces shows up whereas with a circulation strike, this may not always be true. They are very easily scratched and the mirrors simply magnify any imperfections whether its a striking burst or a slight touch with a camel hair brush.
Keep in mind that I am only guessing at this technique based upon my experience asa technical Illustrator/Artist/Model Airplane enthusiast where masking is quite frequently used to protect surfaces from overspray.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm also a bit confused over Cameonut's post:
"If I told you that cert number 21167739 was an artificially frosted cameo I returned to PCGS (which they bought back) - would that change your opinion at all?
I would love to see this coin in hand - I just don't want to shell out the $$. Sure looks suspicious to me."
You are implying that you returned the coin yet in the next statement say you'd not shell out the money for the coin??
>>
He provided two different certificate numbers. >>
Ahhh. But 21167739 is still valid as well. I would think that any coin with "artificial frosting" would be declared "altered surfaces".
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Ahhh. But 21167739 is still valid as well. I would think that any coin with "artificial frosting" would be declared "altered surfaces". >>
Maybe PCGS retained it for the problem coin portion of their grading set? Board Member Wei had stated that PCGS had a number of buy back coins the in problem portion of PCGS's grading set.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ahhh. But 21167739 is still valid as well. I would think that any coin with "artificial frosting" would be declared "altered surfaces". >>
Maybe PCGS retained it for the problem coin portion of their grading set? Board Member Wei had stated that PCGS had a number of buy back coins the in problem portion of PCGS's grading set. >>
And they may have but I could almost guarantee that the cert numbers have been removed from the database since the coin, technically, does not merit the grade.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>And they may have but I could almost guarantee that the cert numbers have been removed from the database >>
They don't change them in the database. Check #21037534. I returned that one about 6 years ago.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>And they may have but I could almost guarantee that the cert numbers have been removed from the database >>
They don't change them in the database. Check #21037534. I returned that one about 6 years ago.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well thats very interesting. Why keep a number in the data base for a coin that has altered surfaces when technically, it has no grade?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>This was not seen by the graders? >>
When frost is freshly faked, it looks much more legit than what we're seeing here. Over time, it dissolves, spreads, and turns to crap.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>And they may have but I could almost guarantee that the cert numbers have been removed from the database >>
They don't change them in the database. Check #21037534. I returned that one about 6 years ago.
Russ, NCNE >>
So does this mean it's still showing up in the pops?
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>So does this mean it's still showing up in the pops? >>
Nope. It was removed shortly after PCGS cut me the check.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>First time I've heard of this type of doctoring. How are coin artificially frosted? >>
Can anyone provide more about the details on how this is done and what material is applied?
I think the more we all know about these techniques the better we will be in terms of awareness and recognition.
Did any of these ever fool you? Or did you buy the coins to return to PCGS?
I know that if they fooled Russ, they have to be deceptive as the devil!
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
He ran weekly advertisements in Parade magazine among others.
I wonder how many of those coins were artificially frosted?
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
To clarify an earlier vague post, I purchased a 1938 1c PCGS Pr65 cameo at the Superior ANA auction in 8/02. The coin looked "real" at the time of purchase. In 5/2004, the coin had obviously turned in the holder so I returned it to PCGS under the grade guarantee. They agreed, kept the coin, and reimbursed me. The cert number on that coin was 21167739.
I have never owned nor seen (in person) the Kennedy in question. Its cert is 21167736 which makes it highly likely it was in the same submission as my 1938 cent which was AF. So I asked the question whether others would agree that the Kennedy is also AF.
The main reason for posting the coin is to help educate people on what AF coins can look like. When these were freshly graded, they were very deceptive. But once they sat for a couple of years, they were easy to pick out.
And as far as how this is done, I don't think it is appropriate to provide much insight into the process involved as this is PCGS's house and I don't want to offend the host. Suffice it to say that material was put on the devices to enhance the cameo effect. It was not stable and changed over time.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
The Kennedy is still in the marketplace and shows in the cert lookup.
I cannot explain why the 1938 cent that was bought back from me is still in the database. I don't have it and I sincerely doubt PCGS put it back in the marketplace. If I were them I would keep it as an example of the AF coins that were produced back in the 2002 timeframe.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>I forgot one thing.
The Kennedy is still in the marketplace and shows in the cert lookup.
I cannot explain why the 1938 cent that was bought back from me is still in the database. I don't have it and I sincerely doubt PCGS put it back in the marketplace. If I were them I would keep it as an example of the AF coins that were produced back in the 2002 timeframe. >>
Earlier in the thread Russ explained that the coin is taken out of the market and off the pop reports but the cert number is still good. And thanks for clarifying about the coin you had bought back vs. the teletrade coin. I thought you meant they were the same coin at fist...