Making this a new post on "cleaned" coins....

canadacolornut

What do forum members think?

Thanks..

"It's curious though.....

If you carefully bathe a coin in EZ, acetone or other solution you'll seldom see it bagged as "cleaned". In fact NGC
even offers a service to do just that.

Entire coin dipped-great, gets a grade.

But if you take a small cotton swab and remove a microscopic carbon speck, then the coin is, uh, "cleaned"
and comes back in a body bag.

Dubious rationale to say the least...... "

JCMhouston

<< <i>But if you take a small cotton swab and remove a microscopic carbon speck, then the coin is, uh, "cleaned" >>



I think that is incorrect. If you scrub with a small cotton swab and leave marks then it will indded most likely come back "cleaned". Some coins really do need a rinse in acetone to remove surface contaminants, some even need a quick dip. I really don't mind conservation when properly done as it generally is done with an eye to preventing further deterioration. I even have some 18th C. that has been dipped at NGC and is unnaturally brilliant, but it was done to remove specific problems on the surface so I can live with it.

I honestly don't understand how people can equate coin doctoring and conservation, but to each his or her own.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs

Oh, now you've gone and pushed one of my buttons...

I've always had a problem with the way that term is used in numismatics. The TPGs (some, anyway) will simply not grade a coin that has been "cleaned", as if the coin is not a coin anymore. Many collectors and dealers shun a coin that has been "cleaned" as much as if it were a fake.

I have never understood the "fear and loathing" aspect of it. It's still the same coin it was before the "cleaning", just treated a little less carefully than it could have been. I've seen the terms "thumbed" or "rubbed" and the same disdain for the coins labeled as such. Isn't the normal wear a coin receives in circulation "rubbing"? Does it again come down to "intent", just like the AT vs NT argument?

My only real concern is whether or not the coin is the real thing (I'll avoid the term "genuine", since that has taken on a new set of implications) or a fake. The condition is a sliding scale and all aspects of the condition should be taken into account. Hairlines, corrosion, scratches, etc. (things that would normally keep one from grading) are just additional factors of condition and should ALL be noted when assigning a grade to a coin. If an 1818 Large Cent has some porosity or a big scratch, it is still a real 1818 large cent and should be graded as such, and the grade should reflect any and all problems the coin may have. Coins get rubbed and scratched and corroded. It's a natural part of a coins life and relects the treatment they've endured.

Doctored coins are a different matter altogether. If the metal has been manipulated to look different/better than it was (i.e. to repair a scratch or fill a hole, whizzed to smooth hairlines or add lustre, etc) then it should be "Genuined" or Bodybagged. If it's had a mintmark added or date changed to make it something it's not, then it falls into the fake category and should be avoided like the plague. Once again, my opinion.

For me, the whole "cleaned" issue has been stepped up a notch or two, since I've concentrated my efforts on collecting British coins. The grading and attitudes towards condition acceptance are definitely different outside the US. In many ways, it's a breath of fresh air. I guess it's a product of the "market" or "greysheet", and coins being treated as commodities, instead of simply enjoying collecting as an interesting hobby and link to the past.

Obviously, this philosophy isn't shared by everyone, but it is my personal opinion on the subject, and one I'll have to live with.

Andres

Well spoken, Stubby

most of my silver shipwrecked coins are thoroughly cleaned, otherwise you wouldn't reckonize them
same goes for dugup coins from the soil.

Why doesn't NGC just slab every coin, and just state: (heavily) cleaned, altered, repaired, False etc.
PCGS does that with currency paper, its called an apparent grade.

canadacolornut

I don't know folks. To me it is too fine a line to see any difference at all between
"preserving" a coin by dipping(cleaning) it and taking a Q tip to remove a carbon spot.

Let's say there was a good solution that would also remove carbon spots from copper.

When the coin is dipped to preserve it does it become "cleaned" since the carbon spot was removed?

Tubby has it right, I believe. Assign a grade and note-by code or abbreviation on the holder any
condition short of whizzing, clearly artificial toning, etc.

And in the case of the coin I'm talking about-a solid and attractive MS coin in my opinion-
assign the grade and note that the coin had been "preserved" by removing a carbon spot
that would eventually eat into the coin and destroy it's surfaces and it's value.

Heck, I'm going to send the danged coin back in. Maybe some graders will read this and agree
with me.

Or maybe not

MSD61

I agree with stubby up there. To simply dip a coin for a second to remove something that could damage the coin long term is different then someone taking the brasso or brillo pad to a coin or to alter a coin as in dates, to hide imperfections, etc. I know this doesn't sit well with many in the coin collecting community but I feel that TPGs are not worth the money. Who says the person grading the coin is any better than a life long collector who has just as much experience? I'll tell you why it's because the slab the coin is entombed in has a big fancy company name on it so that makes them right above all others. Sometimes I think this "Cleaned" and BB is a racket just to get your money again.

I know, I know, people get them graded so they can be sure it's original....so what is being said about all these fake slabs and coins coming from China? How what does one know they have an original coin and slab do they send slab and coin to another grading company to insure it's original? For the most part I do nothing to my coins but classify them and put them in safe-flips or those hard 2x2 style coin flips. I don't understand all the hubbub about a rare coin getting a bath especially of it's a coin not seen often. I also do not understand what the difference is from the collector carrying out a procedure to remove what could be long term damage from his coin and what, say, the service NGC offers with exception of money.

I don't know what to believe anymore you have a coin that has been body bagged by a TPG and returned to you with literature on how their service can save your coin for this fee and then re-graded for that fee. I am sorry sounds like a racket to me. I think sometimes people get so hung up on grades and what TPG service is better they forget the joy of the hobby.

FilthyBroke

I think the most disheartening thing about it to me is the stories of resubmitting for a different result. For example, if a coin was 64 last month, shouldn't it be 64 this month? If it was AT before, what has changed to get it holdered the second time around? And so on.... It's stories like this that concern me, almost like the opinions vary so much that it's just the luck of the draw. It's your money, but spending it on resubmissions just seems like an unnecessary expense to me, if the outcome changes upon second or third submission then there's a problem somewhere. Just my thoughts.

olmanjon

I heartly agree with all of you gentlemen on your opinions on cleaning. I have often used acetone to clean dirt and grime off of a lot of coins. I do not do this to rare coins because you never know what can be under that little speck of dirt. However I would like to address the other side of cleaning. I attended a large flea market last year and a dealer from Canada was there that I had previously bought coins from at a coin show. It was a very sunny bright day and he had a plastic wash tub full of foreign coins. They were labled as Unc. I bought about a dozen of them. When I got them home and broke them out of there 2 x 2's and to my dismay they had all been cleaned bright and shiny and none were better than very fine to extra fine. Because of the sunny day you could not tell this in there holders. Another dealer I know always has bright shiny silver morgans. From a distance they look fine, but when you put a glass on them they don't grade at ms anymore. This is my own personal beef with cleaning coins. Thanks for listening to me vent.
Olmanjon

coinkat

Well...

This is a deep and not so clean subject which results in commentary that is all over the place- and then there is the commentary that is old but seems to be withstanding the est of time here...

Originality is worth a premium- dipped out crap is common because too many have this thought that if this is just enhanced to remove a little grime and bring out the lustre- it will grade higher-

The coin gets dunked in MS70 or something else and then is white and looke completely unnatural- opps. Then, the coin becomes the poster child for what is wrong with this hobby.

I have suggested the need for an original surfaces designation for years- there is a fairly substantial record of past discussions/threads- mostly in the US Coin Forum and the one thing that seems to continue is the thread about the original coin that has lost its appeal because some clown thought it could be improved. I concede an original surfaces designation is not likely- however, maybe the + designation, if used wisely, can fill the void.

It you want a white coin- please go out and buy one as there are enough of these to go around- please leave the originals for those of us that appreciate them for what they are.

Now for the tough part- conservation- some coins need conservation to remove PVC or verdigris- make smart and informed decisions on conservation.