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Building a Type Set (or ANY collection) with Reputable Resources
Obiwancanoli
Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭
How does someone like myself - a relative newcomer (3 years) to the hobby - build a collection with legitimate dealers offering genuine, original coins?
I've purchased many coins from Ebay, many raw, and rarely, if ever, from sellers which had low feedback, less than 99.5% feedback, and none who did not offer the option of returning a coin. In a couple situations, a seller recognized me as someone they were willing to "help", and I felt fortunate in establishing a relationship with people who were genuinely interested in helping me, teaching me, and guiding me along the way. I consider myself lucky here, yet these were specific in their focus, and as my interests have steered me to building a Type Set, I realize I must expand my horizons.
I've read many times that one should find a good, reputable dealer(s), and of course, this is sound advice. But my limited budget and experience suggests that without some outside assistance, my efforts have as equal a chance at finding one as I would with the alternatives. In my profession, there is no question that the best clients come from high-quality referrals, and I make every effort to not only offer 110% to my clients, but to also encourage them to introduce those they know to the same high level of service. So it goes with my quest for referrals to those who are better equipped, more talented, and experienced than I in the realm of numismatics.
As I cannot spend the same amount of time in in the hobby as those whose expertise I wish to tap into, I am forced to place my trust and confidence in people I don't know [well] to help and guide me in the same manner in which I treat my own clients when they require MY expertise. And so, this is my question for all who wish to respond -
First, please feel free to PM me if you feel more comfortable doing so, or post your response here for all to see and learn - and benefit, as the case may be.
While I am really just gettng started on building my type set, the recent publicity regarding coin doctoring, PCGS' new sniffer technology, chinese counterfeits, and so forth makes me feel doing so is a daunting task. Like most, I'm sure, I thought it would be easier than this, but am finding that with each coin I research (my primary source of coins has been Ebay), I've become less and less confident that anything I buy is actually a genuine coin - not to mention my ability to judge its proper grade. Amazingly, I used to watch up to a dozen coins at any one time, but last time I looked, I had 37 in the que, and discovered I couldn't make a move on ANY of them. I was that concerned about making a mistake.
I need - and WANT - sound advice, but more than that, I need reputable resources - outside of the limited coin shows I'm able to attend - to find the pieces I want, and feel assured I've done my best to build a set with the level of quality I'm determined to find. Of course, I don't have unlimited resources, and I can see a dealer might become quickly bored with my persistent research, and my less than regular resources. I don't know what my coin budget is, but I'm pretty sure no one's going to retire on my business. Nevertheless, I know there are many people on this forum who frequently give of themselves without shameless self-promotion, and while I've learned much from this, I've no idea what most of you specialize in.
Who specializes in what?
Who, in your experience, do you recommend for a particular series or type?
If YOUR focus is a particular series, would you feel comfortable in sharing that?
Perhaps I'm asking something that some may not feel comfortable with - that shameless self-promotion thing - but truth be known, if you feel confident in mentoring someone about your specialty, that's exactly what I seek in order to feel confident, in time, of my own. If you've dealt with someone you feel I would appreciate knowing [about], I want to learn that, too.
Finally, if for any reason this is an inappropriate request, I sure don't want to offend anyone, for I know the members of this forum possess the integrity and commitment to the hobby upon which I and others like me rely. Please feel free to offer any and all observations, and again, feel free to PM with your thoughts.
Thank you, everyone.
I've purchased many coins from Ebay, many raw, and rarely, if ever, from sellers which had low feedback, less than 99.5% feedback, and none who did not offer the option of returning a coin. In a couple situations, a seller recognized me as someone they were willing to "help", and I felt fortunate in establishing a relationship with people who were genuinely interested in helping me, teaching me, and guiding me along the way. I consider myself lucky here, yet these were specific in their focus, and as my interests have steered me to building a Type Set, I realize I must expand my horizons.
I've read many times that one should find a good, reputable dealer(s), and of course, this is sound advice. But my limited budget and experience suggests that without some outside assistance, my efforts have as equal a chance at finding one as I would with the alternatives. In my profession, there is no question that the best clients come from high-quality referrals, and I make every effort to not only offer 110% to my clients, but to also encourage them to introduce those they know to the same high level of service. So it goes with my quest for referrals to those who are better equipped, more talented, and experienced than I in the realm of numismatics.
As I cannot spend the same amount of time in in the hobby as those whose expertise I wish to tap into, I am forced to place my trust and confidence in people I don't know [well] to help and guide me in the same manner in which I treat my own clients when they require MY expertise. And so, this is my question for all who wish to respond -
First, please feel free to PM me if you feel more comfortable doing so, or post your response here for all to see and learn - and benefit, as the case may be.
While I am really just gettng started on building my type set, the recent publicity regarding coin doctoring, PCGS' new sniffer technology, chinese counterfeits, and so forth makes me feel doing so is a daunting task. Like most, I'm sure, I thought it would be easier than this, but am finding that with each coin I research (my primary source of coins has been Ebay), I've become less and less confident that anything I buy is actually a genuine coin - not to mention my ability to judge its proper grade. Amazingly, I used to watch up to a dozen coins at any one time, but last time I looked, I had 37 in the que, and discovered I couldn't make a move on ANY of them. I was that concerned about making a mistake.
I need - and WANT - sound advice, but more than that, I need reputable resources - outside of the limited coin shows I'm able to attend - to find the pieces I want, and feel assured I've done my best to build a set with the level of quality I'm determined to find. Of course, I don't have unlimited resources, and I can see a dealer might become quickly bored with my persistent research, and my less than regular resources. I don't know what my coin budget is, but I'm pretty sure no one's going to retire on my business. Nevertheless, I know there are many people on this forum who frequently give of themselves without shameless self-promotion, and while I've learned much from this, I've no idea what most of you specialize in.
Who specializes in what?
Who, in your experience, do you recommend for a particular series or type?
If YOUR focus is a particular series, would you feel comfortable in sharing that?
Perhaps I'm asking something that some may not feel comfortable with - that shameless self-promotion thing - but truth be known, if you feel confident in mentoring someone about your specialty, that's exactly what I seek in order to feel confident, in time, of my own. If you've dealt with someone you feel I would appreciate knowing [about], I want to learn that, too.
Finally, if for any reason this is an inappropriate request, I sure don't want to offend anyone, for I know the members of this forum possess the integrity and commitment to the hobby upon which I and others like me rely. Please feel free to offer any and all observations, and again, feel free to PM with your thoughts.
Thank you, everyone.
UBERCOINER
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
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Comments
Leo
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
You will, or at least should, receive different recommendations based on the grade/value ranges of the coins you're pursuing. You will also get different suggestions depending upon whether you are buying uncertified or certified examples.
I would caution you not to assume that Ebay sellers with very high feedback ratings - even as high as 100% - are necessarily selling genuine coins and ones that are not over-graded and/or don't have problems. Many sellers have outstanding ratings, but in the case of some of them, it's because unknowledgeable buyers of their coins think they are getting bargains, when in fact , they are burying themselves in their purchases.
I have found that I much prefer to buy my coins sight-seen, from dealers I enjoy patronizing. The camaraderie, opportunity to ask questions, higher level of trust, and two-way market for many nice pieces (regardless of price point) make working with a few good dealers whom you know a much more pleasurable option than shopping eBay. Frankly, I have no idea why anyone would try to put together a nice Type Set via ANY route that doesn't involve evaluating coins in hand, matching them to your set, and carefully adding them to what could be come a 'work of art' in time. I DO believe that regardless of what people say about coins on eBay, the true story is much more like those in your neghborhood who get ripped off by bad paving or roofing scams . . . no one wants to actually admit the problem or that THEY got ripped off. The few we see complaining here are the tip of the iceberg.
Cultivate fun relationships with specialists who stock Type at your price point. Every price point has good coins and bad coins, and make sure you rigorously subject any piece you consider adding to strong scrutiny. You'll have an absolute riot and love the hobby (and heaven forbid I mention this . . . you might even make a bit of cash when you finally decide to sell). Stay with quality and evaluate every coin in hand. View as many coins at shows as you can to devbelop your eye. Ask questions and find out (it will be easy) who is in it for the fun and education in the hobby and who are the jerks. There are many who will freely give of their time and expertise and all of us owe them a debt of gratitutde.
Above all . . have fun with this. You have many dealers out there who are superb at their trade and are looking for long-term customers even if they don't spend huge amounts. I could recommend many, but unless you feel the need to know their names, immerse yourself at local and regional shows and have a blast. I envy your position in the hobby and the fun you will have!
Drunner
First - Stop buying on eBay...for now. In the future, you can return to shopping on eBay once you become more confident in your own abilities. You will gain that confidence by working with top specialist dealers and seeing what great coins actually look like.
Second - Develop a relationship with two or three top dealers based on recommendations from forum members and then your own personal experience.
Third - Be willing to pay more for nice coins from these top dealers. You may not like paying more for a coin from a top dealer when a similar coin with the same date and mint mark can be found elsewhere. But often that "similar" coin is only similar because of the date and mint mark. In terms of technical grade, originality and eye appeal the difference can be significant. You are paying for assurance and peace of mind. You are also paying for future consideration or first shot at coins you want because the dealer will learn what you like and help you build your collection.
Fourth - Be willing to pass on coins that are only marginal. Be willing to buy fewer, but better coins. "Less is more", "quality over quantity"...whatever you want to call it...if you focus on building a collection with fewer purchases of higher quality, your collection will grow into something you can be proud of and also feel confident that it will hold its value. However, this approach will also mean that each coin will cost more than you may be used to paying currently. You'll have to get comfortable with the idea of paying more for each coin and tying up your resources. But in the long run it will be well worth it.
Five - Realize that even great dealers are human. They sometimes make mistakes. In the end, you have to make your own decision about what you like and what you don't like. But be willing to discuss this with the dealer and explain why you don't like a particular coin or a look as well as what you do like. Ask for their opinion but make your own decision. You'll feel better about your collection.
There are many great dealers. Here are just a few that I recommend:
Coin Rarities Online - certainly for colonial and early copper, but I would recommend them for any coin or specialty without hesitation.
Andy Skrabalak and Angel Dee's Coins - Lincoln Cents primarily, but also high quality type coins.
Rick Snow at Eagle Eye Rare Coins - Flying Eagle and Indian Cents.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
If you are concerned about coins being genuine, then the old "buy the book before the coin" saying has merit; you need to educate yourself (which should be an enjoyable task). As for "original" coins, good luck with that one, most of the coins people show here as being original make me laugh, as there is no way to prove or disprove the statement (when someone asks me to show them an original coin, I show them a GSA Black Box Morgan).
There are a number of reputable dealers, and you can put together a nice set of coins by buying from them, but don't expect to make a profit on the set when you're done; remember it's a hobby.
So the bottom line is what are your goals, are you a hobbyist or an investor?
I must say, if this were an investment for me, I'd be in the coin business full time. right now, today, and for the forseeable future, this is a hobby. And, since I've got a few years before senility sets in, seems to me if I START with top coins to begin with, the investment part will take care of itself, should that eventually become a concern. Fundamentally, I'm looking at the experience, and the pleasure and fun of collecting. But since I can't take it with me, there will come a time when they must be passed on to another caretaker. I suspect a few of you will be in that boat with me, and personally, I'd like to reminisce about some of the coins you provided me with!
Michael
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
1. Buy books pertinent to your collecting interests and to other facets of numismatics (grading in particular).
2. Find someone (perhaps a dealer who wants to cultivate you as a long-term customer) who can provide good advice. At your stage, finding a mentor is very important.
3. Be VERY patient. In many cases, not buying a coin (or not placing a bid for an auction lot) is the only smart thing to do.
4. Don't get caught up in 'stampedes'---there are many kinds of coins that do not represent real value at this time, but are nonetheless heavily promoted.
5. Don't assume that all ads in Coin World or Numismatic News offer coins that are properly graded. Coins graded ambiguously (e.g., premium quality, select uncirculated, etc.) should be
avoided.
6. What MidLifeCrisis said about quality needs to be repeated: quality means everything, and beats quantity every time when forming any type of collection. Quality will not come cheap---in many cases, coins that are unusually nice for their grades will sell for multiples of their prices in typical price guides. On the other hand, if you search for coins with the attitude of a
bargain-basement shopper, your collection will reflect that.
7. Learn something about the business aspects of the hobby---how coins are priced, venues for selling coins, what dealers look for in buying coins for stock (and what they might
pay, given varying circumstances), what grading really means and how it has evolved during the last 50 years, etc.
8. Learning to grade what you collect is critical to self-protection. You cannot do this by simply looking at images in books or on your computer monitor----you must physically
inspect lots of coins (thousands if you want to progress beyond beginner level). Be sure to look at good, bad, and even ugly coins---every coin you study can teach you something when
you are learning the ropes.
9. Similarly, when you walk into a coin shop (or up to a dealer's table at a coin show), be sure to note what is and is not on display. Many times, nice coins will be out of sight, so ask.
You should also take note of dealers who don't have routinely nice coins in stock and focus your shopping efforts elsewhere.
10. Keep good records. Whenever you purchase a coin from a dealer, get an invoice (some dealers may complain, but you need to insist on this).
11. I do not believe that ebay is a good venue for purchasing coins. There are extraordinary numbers of artificially toned, tooled, and counterfeit coins for sale there. In addition, some dealers use ebay as a dumping ground for low-end coins that they cannot sell in face-to-face transactions. Caveat emptor.
12. If part of your motivation is investment, I would refrain from spending big bucks until getting up to speed with respect to the above and learning things about the ups and downs of the coin market during the last 30-35 years. Coins that are high-grade and have loads of eye appeal are not necessarily good investments at this time.
Even with all of the above caveats, I think that numismatics is the greatest hobby in the world. Just remember that your collection is composed of what YOU want, and other opinions of your coins do not matter unless you (or your heirs) intend to sell the coins at some time in the future. However, if this is a strong possibility, then how others perceive them is of crucial importance.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Educate yourself or you will always wonder ......
K >>
Exactly. And don't get so caught up in the rush. Enjoy the search and each coin you find that meets your criteria for your set.
<< <i>Obiwancanoli, that was a good post!
You will, or at least should, receive different recommendations based on the grade/value ranges of the coins you're pursuing. You will also get different suggestions depending upon whether you are buying uncertified or certified examples.
I would caution you not to assume that Ebay sellers with very high feedback ratings - even as high as 100% - are necessarily selling genuine coins and ones that are not over-graded and/or don't have problems. Many sellers have outstanding ratings, but in the case of some of them, it's because unknowledgeable buyers of their coins think they are getting bargains, when in fact , they are burying themselves in their purchases. >>
Yes, I agree. Until my post, however, I had little other resource to comfortably rely on, and the criteria were, admittedly, limited to feedback, tenure, and a refund policy. Never bought a coin without that last one, as I've actually sent back many coins I bought on Ebay because, of course, they do not measure up when in my hands, looking back at me.
Still, I posted in large part because I want a better, more reliable way to acquire what I seek. I want to deal with reputable, dependable, knowledgable, forthright people whose integrity matches the handshake my father said was better than any signature on a contract. Yes, I know the concept is seemingly lost on some members of society, but I also know there are titans in the hobby - exemplified only by their knowledge and willingness, if not desire - to share what they know. I believe those individuals to comprise a significant population within this forum.
It's why I'm here. It's why I post.
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
<< <i>Still, I posted in large part because I want a better, more reliable way to acquire what I seek. I want to deal with reputable, dependable, knowledgable, forthright people whose integrity matches the handshake my father said was better than any signature on a contract. Yes, I know the concept is seemingly lost on some members of society, but I also know there are titans in the hobby - exemplified only by their knowledge and willingness, if not desire - to share what they know. I believe those individuals to comprise a significant population within this forum.
It's why I'm here. It's why I post. >>
Man, that's good. Seriously.
<< <i>I want to deal with reputable, dependable, knowledgable, forthright people whose integrity matches the handshake my father said was better than any signature on a contract. Yes, I know the concept is seemingly lost on some members of society, but I also know there are titans in the hobby - exemplified only by their knowledge and willingness, if not desire - to share what they know. I believe those individuals to comprise a significant population within this forum. >>
Get to know Mark Feld.
We would all love to have the perfect dealer that could drop the perfect coin in our lap all of the time, but there are no shortcuts to building a quality set that you like. The point being that only you are the ultimate arbiter of what YOU like. No two people have the same eye. There is a lot of work that goes into building it, regardless of money and/or contacts. Sure you can buy complete collections, but typically guys who do that cherry pick what they like out of it and sell off the rest while they continue the quest for better coins.
Because of that, I've been fortunate enough to add a really nice 20c piece, and a bootiful Barber Dime as well.
I still watch a few coins on Ebay, but find I'm shifting away from that in favor of other alternatives, and hope to further hone my skills by paying attention to what others more knowledgable than I have to say (and that includes just about all of you).
Funny though... it occurs to me that I'd really like to work part-time for a knowledgable dealer. Something about that gets me all warm and fuzzy inside... can't think of a better way to learn first hand. I've considered I may have to wait until retirement, but frankly, I just don't have the patience for that.
Don't know of any shows in the near future near me (Napa Valley, CA), but keepoing my eyes open, and if you know of something local, please feel free to PM.
Thank you again, everyone... keep 'em coming...
Michael
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent