Hockey fans,

johnny1976

Who in your opinion was the greatest American born player? My friend and I were having this debate at work yesterday. He said Mike Modano was the greatest and I agree on paper he is. My argument was for Pat Lafontaine who I believe would have been a 600 goal scorer had it not been for his injuries. I would like to get some opinions on this.

edmundfitzgerald

Those two are certainly in the top 5 best forwards that ever played for the USA.

When looking at defense Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch have to be right up there.

Mike Richter won a Stanley Cup and played incredible in beating Canada in the 1997 championship.

I think it may be better to make a 1st team and 2nd team all time US team. Choosing the best player is not possible IMO.

I also think that Patrick Kane (Chicago Blackhawks) has the best skill set for any American born player I've ever seen.
No one even comes close.

johnny1976

edmund,

I agree with you on Patrick Kane. Kids got some serious skills. Brian Leetch was a great player also, but I still have to say overall Lafontaine was the best American born player. I know he didn't have a lengthy career because of injuries, he retired at 33, but his skills were above everyone elses.

edmundfitzgerald

No doubt in my mind that Lafontaine was a little better skilled then Modano. When J.R. first entered the league in Chicago he
was a hitting and skating/scoring machine too. He was awesome. Let's see how much better Patrick Kane gets. He reminds
me of a young Gilbert Perrault.

edmundfitzgerald

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and rank my best all time USA players.................

1. Brian Leetch...........Was the Conn Smythe winner of the 1994 Rangers. A team that had Mark Messier and an awesome
Mike Richter. Had 1,028 points in 1,025 games AS A DEFENSMAN. He gets my nod as #1.

2. Pat Lafontaine.........Had 1,013 points in 800+ games. Nuff said.

3. Chris Chelios.......Don't like the guy, but got to give him his props.

4. Joey Mullen........Just an all time winner and great guy.

5. Mike Richter.........Modano probably belongs here, but Richter has too much silverware and big game performances, but
Modano probably belongs here

6. See #5

7. J.R.

8. Phil Housley & Rod Lanway.......Two different types of D men, but both very good players.

9. John LeClair......Won a cup with Montreal. Helped Eric Lindros have a great career. Won the 1997 championship with USA.

10. Jim Craig

johnny1976

Can't argue with that to much, its a great list.

Garabaldi

Keith Tkachuck has to be on that list and probably ahead of LeClair. I would also take J. Vanbiesbrook and Tom Barrasso over Jim Craig, unless we are just going on the Miracle on Ice.

megatron

<< <i>OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and rank my best all time USA players.................

1. Brian Leetch...........Was the Conn Smythe winner of the 1994 Rangers. A team that had Mark Messier and an awesome
Mike Richter. Had 1,028 points in 1,025 games AS A DEFENSMAN. He gets my nod as #1.

2. Pat Lafontaine.........Had 1,013 points in 800+ games. Nuff said.

3. Chris Chelios.......Don't like the guy, but got to give him his props.

4. Joey Mullen........Just an all time winner and great guy.

5. Mike Richter.........Modano probably belongs here, but Richter has too much silverware and big game performances, but
Modano probably belongs here
6. See #5

7. J.R.

8. Phil Housley & Rod Lanway.......Two different types of D men, but both very good players.

9. John LeClair......Won a cup with Montreal. Helped Eric Lindros have a great career. Won the 1997 championship with USA.

10. Jim Craig >>



Curious about your reason for not liking Chelios

sagard

John Mayasich should always be on lists like this. If your in love with post expansion NHL hockey, he isn't your guy. One of the first to master the slapper and won gold and silver as an Olympian.

lanemyer85

putting Lafontaine and Leech ahead of Chelios is a fail. Firstly, Leech was an OD...granted he was solid in his own zone, but was never close to Chelios' level. Chelios was a stay at home defender who could also bank points. Different players. Not including Modano in a top 10 American born player list is asinine as well. Roenick probably would have been the greatest, but that jagoff POS D.Hatcher put an end to that.

I also think that Patrick Kane (Chicago Blackhawks) has the best skill set for any American born player I've ever seen. No one even comes close.

Apparently you haven't seen Zach Parise play. Not only is Parise an elite scorer, he's also among the best defensive wingers in the game, whereas P.Kane is well below average. He doesn't possess the vision and passing ability that Kane does but he's every bit the goal scorer that Kane is, much moreso in '08-09. If Ryan Miller has a lengthy career, he'll be at or near the top as well.

Greatest US born player as of today
Chelios

edmundfitzgerald

I know that Chelios won 3 Norris Trophy's ??? Maybe I'm off by one, but I still see him as a Zdeno Chara in that
I saw him make many more turnovers and poor decisions, where as Leetch was an incredible decision maker. Leetch could
run the powerplay right up there with Bourque and Coffey. Chelios could not. Chelios was a little better at clearing the
front of the net, but Leetch was just as good defensively as Chelios.

I've seen plenty of Zach Parise and Zach isn't even close to Kane in his skill set. Patrick Kane has Mario Lemieux like abilities in that he can control the game in the open ice. Zach is much better in the corners and front of the net, but so was Wayne Cashman, and Bobby Orr's job was to create the open ice because no one could take the puck from him. Patrick Kane has the ability to start and stop on a dime, and hold onto the puck as long as Mario and Bobby could. Zach Parise has limited to no ability to hang onto the puck in the offensive zone. He's a grinder and incredible working machine, but the other teams checkers can easily check him 1 on 1 when he has the puck. Guys would give Bobby Orr and Mario space because they knew if they got close to them, they'd get burned. Patrick is quickly approaching that level, and heck even Mario could do what Patrick is doing
at Patricks age. It took Mario much longer to get that space due to his outstanding skill set.

edmundfitzgerald

Oh, the reason I don't like Chelios is because I find it a little suspicious that he's playing at the age of 46 in todays game.
Todays game is much different then when Gordie played, and I feel that he's had a little bit of help along the way.
When Gretzky was 39 he clearly admitted that his body just couldn't keep up with the faster, stronger kids of today.
For those of you who are older then 39, you understand.

edmundfitzgerald

Here's an interesting fact. The current American born plus-minus career leader had a very popular dad who played
for Detroit. He wasn't on my list, but he was every bit as good as Langway, Housley, Chelios, and Leetch.

lanemyer85

but Leetch was just as good defensively as Chelios.


I've seen plenty of Zach Parise and Zach isn't even close to Kane in his skill set.

edmundfitzgerald

OK, who would you take................

Player A .............1651 career games..............948 career points............2891 penalty minutes

Player B..............1205 career games.............1028 career points...........571 penalty minutes


Career Playoffs

Player A............268 career playoff games........144 points.............423 penalty minutes

Player B............95 career playoff games.........97 points...............36 penalty minutes

(If player B played on as many great teams as player A, then Player B's career playoff stats would be )

285 career games..........................................291 points.............108 penalty minutes
That would be double the amount of points, and 4 times less penalty minutes, which means he doesn't hurt
his team with a shorthanded situation, and spends more time on the ice to help his team.

edmundfitzgerald

Leetch accumulated many individual honors during his 18-year career. He was a two-time Norris Trophy winner as the NHL's best defenseman (1992, 1997) and remains the only American-born winner of the Conn Smythe Trophy as Playoff MVP for his brilliant play during the Rangers' run to the 1994 Stanley Cup Championship. He is one of only five NHL defensemen to score 100 points in a season with his 102-point campaign in 1991–92. He won the Calder Trophy as the NHL Rookie of the Year in 1989 and his 23 goals that season remain an NHL record for rookie defensemen. Leetch's number 2 was retired by the Rangers on January 24, 2008. During the ceremony, longtime teammate Mark Messier referred to Leetch as the "Greatest Ranger of All Time."

lanemyer85

Norris means nothing to this argument. Offensive D-men perpetually have the advantage in voting. The Norris is the MLB equivalent to a Gold Glove. Where David Wright will take home hardware despite not even being the best defensive 3B in his own division (Zimmerman). Mike Green is a Norris finalist each year and is a human fire drill in his own end. Leetch wasn't Green's level of bad, but he surely wasn't anywhere near Chelios either. Chelios managed to win 3 because he's a stay at home defender who was also a puck mover and had a much higher offensive upside than you give him credit for. Like Pronger without the size and glacial speed. The other numbers you bring up are meaningless to your original statement.


but Leetch was just as good defensively as Chelios.

Chelios +350 career
Leetch +25 career.
I'm not going to get into advanced stats because if I site DGVT or something like BTN your head will explode. Plus we all know you're incapable of admitting that you're wrong anyway. btw, Chelios played the Point plenty during his career. 69 career PPGs in fact. He was on Detroit's 2nd unit all those years because they had a little Swede the kids called Lidstrom...he wasn't bad either.


and let me clean up some numbers for you that are more pertinent.

'08-'09 Parise - 45G, 49A, 94 PTS, +30, 24 PIMs
'08-'09 Kane - 25G, 45A, 70 PTS, -2, 42 PIMs

'09-'10 Parise - 38G, 44A, 82 PTS, +24, 32 PIMs
'09-'10 Kane - 30G, 58A, 88 PTS, +16, 20 PIMs

and while I will say that eventually (perhaps as soon as next year) Kane could surpass Parise, he surely isn't there yet....and oh yeah, lest we mention, Kane plays on lines with scrubs like Toews, Sharp, and even a few games with Hossa...with elite puck movers and passers like Campbell and Keith on the point. Parise is playing along side NJ's litany of checking liners like Zajac, Zubrus, Langenbrunner etc and one (aging) star in Elias who missed a quarter of the season and had a down year on top of it, with zero dynamic offensive d-men on NJ's point. Don't let little things like supporting cast enter into your equation though.


Oh, the reason I don't like Chelios is because I find it a little suspicious that he's playing at the age of 46 in todays game.

actually he's 48...and you're implying he is or was on the juice...because if you actually knew anything about Chelios, is he's a general workout-aholic, he rides an exercise bike in his freaking home sauna. The game hasn't seen a finer conditioned athlete.

edmundfitzgerald

Epic fail in comparing Parise now to Kane now.

Parise was born in 1984. Kane was born in 1988. But nice try.


I put Chelios as the #3 all time USA player behind Lafontaine and Leetch. Nothing to admit wrong here. If you think
Chelios is better, that 's fine, even though he's probably on the juice. BTW, everyone always said how hard Roger Clemens worked out too, and McGwire, and all the others, so that argument is lame. But I'm sure you'll try to think of something else.

This Montreal enforcer wrote a book about the use of steriods and peds in the NHL. If anyone thinks it's not true, then just read the book.

http://www.amazon.fr/Mémoires-d.../dp/2895491623

edmundfitzgerald

Here's a Kane-Parise case that can't be argued. The recent Olympics in Vancouver.

Both players were +4. Parise had 4 goals 4 assists. Kane had 3 goals, 2 assists. Parise is 4 years older then Kane.

Kane in my book is ahead of Parise in his development. Maybe there's a reason he was drafted #1.

lanemyer85

yeah I knew I shouldn't have bothered.