The Greater Ocala Coin Club: "many of the organization’s nearly 200 members were cleaning silve
Goldbully
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...selling them to inexperienced collectors as mint or un-circulated currency."
Former coin club member cries fraud
By Fred Hiers
Staff writer
Ocala.com
Published: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 5:47 p.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 5:49 p.m.
( page of 3 )
The Greater Ocala Coin Club’s future is in peril following allegations by one of its former officers that members were altering coins that they later misrepresented to unsuspecting buyers.
The club’s former secretary, Larry Faw, who was also the club’s registered agent with the Florida Department of State, Division of Corporations, is asking the state to dissolve the organization.
Faw said that many of the organization’s nearly 200 members were cleaning silver coins but selling them to inexperienced collectors as mint or un-circulated currency.
“It’s fraud. They’re defrauding the public,” Faw told the Star-Banner after filing complaints to the Florida Department of State, the Attorney General’s Office and the State Attorney’s Office.
“They’re telling the public (the coins they are selling) are original and they’re not. The problem was that it was getting to the point where 40 percent of the members (selling coins) were doing it.”
The State Attorney’s Office and local law enforcement said they are not yet investigating Faw’s complaints.
The crux of Faw’s complaint is that club members were selling the cleaned coins as if they had never been altered, in plastic containers and advertised them as mint and never used by the public. The difference in the value of a coin that was naturally bright because of non use and that of one being cleaned could be several hundred dollars or more.
Faw also made additional complaints in his filings that members of the club failed to report sales and operated a coin business on the side without registering it with the appropriate state and federal taxing agencies.
The Greater Ocala Coin Club meets monthly at the Veterans of Foreign Wars’ facility on Northeast 36th Avenue, where members buy and sell coins. The club also hosts an annual three-day coin show and sale. This year’s show included nearly 70 coin dealer stations and attracted about 1,200 people. Faw estimated that about $3 million in sales are made at the shows.
Faw said he informed some of the club’s board members about his concerns, but they ignored him.
“This is no surprise, I’ve been telling them for six to eight months,” Faw said, referring to his move to end the club’s registration. He is also cancelling the club’s 501 (c)(3) not-for-profit registration with the federal Internal Revenue Service “Now they’re mad as hornets,” he said of the club’s members.
Club official Richard Selvar said some coins that are traded or sold throughout the industry are cleaned or dipped into cleaning agents, but that it’s nearly impossible to say who did the cleaning and when.
Dipping coins in cleaning solutions is commonplace in collecting, Selvar said. But he said dealers are obligated to tell buyers if they cleaned the coins and if they are trying to present them as unaltered and never circulated.
Selvar said he was not aware of any of his club’s members cleaning circulated coins to make them appear uncirculated, or trying to pass them off as uncirculated.
Selvar said he also isn’t concerned about Faw removing the club’s nonprofit status, nor that Faw is pulling the club’s registration with the Florida Department of State.
He said that the club would continue to do business without being registered.
Not so, said Florida Department of State spokeswoman Jennifer Davis. If a club is doing business, it must register, she said.
Chris Lane, with the Heritage Auction Galleries, a Dallas-based rare coin dealership and auction house, said that in most cases cleaning a coin detracts from its value.
And most experienced coin collectors can detect if a coin has been cleaned, he said.
In some cases, dipping a non-circulated coin briefly in a solvent is permissible if it’s to remove dirt or tarnish. But to dip a circulated, dirty coin in a cleaning agent and then pass it off as non-circulated coin is “unethical and I would say you’re deceiving people.”
Lane said the best remedy for buyers was to insist the coin they are considering buying be certified by an independent third party, namely the Professional Coin Grading Service or the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. They will grade the coin or determine if the coin had been altered through cleaning and therefore not gradable.
And if a dealer isn’t willing to have a coin certified before selling it to you, Lane said the buyer shouldn’t just walk away from the sale “but run away.”
Fred Hiers can be reached at fred.hiers@starbanner.com and 352-867-4157.
Ocala Link
Former coin club member cries fraud
By Fred Hiers
Staff writer
Ocala.com
Published: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 5:47 p.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 at 5:49 p.m.
( page of 3 )
The Greater Ocala Coin Club’s future is in peril following allegations by one of its former officers that members were altering coins that they later misrepresented to unsuspecting buyers.
The club’s former secretary, Larry Faw, who was also the club’s registered agent with the Florida Department of State, Division of Corporations, is asking the state to dissolve the organization.
Faw said that many of the organization’s nearly 200 members were cleaning silver coins but selling them to inexperienced collectors as mint or un-circulated currency.
“It’s fraud. They’re defrauding the public,” Faw told the Star-Banner after filing complaints to the Florida Department of State, the Attorney General’s Office and the State Attorney’s Office.
“They’re telling the public (the coins they are selling) are original and they’re not. The problem was that it was getting to the point where 40 percent of the members (selling coins) were doing it.”
The State Attorney’s Office and local law enforcement said they are not yet investigating Faw’s complaints.
The crux of Faw’s complaint is that club members were selling the cleaned coins as if they had never been altered, in plastic containers and advertised them as mint and never used by the public. The difference in the value of a coin that was naturally bright because of non use and that of one being cleaned could be several hundred dollars or more.
Faw also made additional complaints in his filings that members of the club failed to report sales and operated a coin business on the side without registering it with the appropriate state and federal taxing agencies.
The Greater Ocala Coin Club meets monthly at the Veterans of Foreign Wars’ facility on Northeast 36th Avenue, where members buy and sell coins. The club also hosts an annual three-day coin show and sale. This year’s show included nearly 70 coin dealer stations and attracted about 1,200 people. Faw estimated that about $3 million in sales are made at the shows.
Faw said he informed some of the club’s board members about his concerns, but they ignored him.
“This is no surprise, I’ve been telling them for six to eight months,” Faw said, referring to his move to end the club’s registration. He is also cancelling the club’s 501 (c)(3) not-for-profit registration with the federal Internal Revenue Service “Now they’re mad as hornets,” he said of the club’s members.
Club official Richard Selvar said some coins that are traded or sold throughout the industry are cleaned or dipped into cleaning agents, but that it’s nearly impossible to say who did the cleaning and when.
Dipping coins in cleaning solutions is commonplace in collecting, Selvar said. But he said dealers are obligated to tell buyers if they cleaned the coins and if they are trying to present them as unaltered and never circulated.
Selvar said he was not aware of any of his club’s members cleaning circulated coins to make them appear uncirculated, or trying to pass them off as uncirculated.
Selvar said he also isn’t concerned about Faw removing the club’s nonprofit status, nor that Faw is pulling the club’s registration with the Florida Department of State.
He said that the club would continue to do business without being registered.
Not so, said Florida Department of State spokeswoman Jennifer Davis. If a club is doing business, it must register, she said.
Chris Lane, with the Heritage Auction Galleries, a Dallas-based rare coin dealership and auction house, said that in most cases cleaning a coin detracts from its value.
And most experienced coin collectors can detect if a coin has been cleaned, he said.
In some cases, dipping a non-circulated coin briefly in a solvent is permissible if it’s to remove dirt or tarnish. But to dip a circulated, dirty coin in a cleaning agent and then pass it off as non-circulated coin is “unethical and I would say you’re deceiving people.”
Lane said the best remedy for buyers was to insist the coin they are considering buying be certified by an independent third party, namely the Professional Coin Grading Service or the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. They will grade the coin or determine if the coin had been altered through cleaning and therefore not gradable.
And if a dealer isn’t willing to have a coin certified before selling it to you, Lane said the buyer shouldn’t just walk away from the sale “but run away.”
Fred Hiers can be reached at fred.hiers@starbanner.com and 352-867-4157.
Ocala Link
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We often have educational presentations to make people aware of damaged and misgraded coins.
Was the cleaning and selling being done as a club endeavor or was this just some club members operating on their own.
If it was the latter, the decision to request dissolution was probably not warranted.
We need to hear the rest of the story.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The story is false. As an officer of the club Larry inappropriate the club funds and the club is pressing charges.
I mean come on an entire club is cleaning all their coins & selling them? Doesn't that sound odd to you?
Yes I'm a member of the club but are you going to tell me that the slabbed PCGS & NGC coins were cleaned? the bags of Wheat pennies were cleaned?
Mr Faw is a children's book author and well, if you know the right people you can cause problems.
Besides I say it takes balls to accuse all the members when 1 of them is a past ANA president.
<< <i>Bingo! 291fifth & PerryHall hit it right on the money.
The story is false. As an officer of the club Larry inappropriate the club funds and the club is pressing charges.
I mean come on an entire club is cleaning all their coins & selling them? Doesn't that sound odd to you?
Yes I'm a member of the club but are you going to tell me that the slabbed PCGS & NGC coins were cleaned? the bags of Wheat pennies were cleaned?
Mr Faw is a children's book author and well, if you know the right people you can cause problems.
Besides I say it takes balls to accuse all the members when 1 of them is a past ANA president. >>
Welcome to the forums R7C1.....that's quite a story!!!
We got some smart detective types here for sure!!!
take advantage (profit) from their inexperience. If there are coin dealer members in charge, you should even be more cautious. Not saying all are scum, but you need to be educated by the great educators. Just a caution that newbies should be wise.
The article was published by the media which gives it some creditibility. The article states "many" not all were cleaning coins. It did provide an estimate of 40%. A figure that is not surprising.
A representative of the club said dipping coins is "commonplace". A spokeperson for Heritage provided some good advice to defend the hobby.
Having a past president of the ANA does not help. I took the time to read the ANA code of ethics. It does not mention cleaning coins as a violation.
Repeatly, it has been mentioned that cleaning is yet to be defined and until a group takes a stand and defines and enforces the issue will remain.
revived thread.