Also, dont forget the 1870-S Seated Dollar that a forum member posted here that is in a genuine holder. How are its characteristics and circumstances so much different that this Gobrecht?
How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is.
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
Not sure if this has been asked yet - Why is so important for you to get this one in plastic? Just curious....
<< <i>I believe as long as a coin can be determined to be a Mint product, and the date can be determined as well, it should be slabbed. Otherwise they're starting down a very slippery slope (which in the long term will have a greater impact on their reputation). >>
Suppose one were to cut a coin in half and repair each half such that the results were two "whole" coins. Both are "Mint products", at least in part. Or are they?
It isnt. I was far more annoyed that my two innocent trade dollars got rejected for no reason. We are now just having an academic discussion about what should or shouldnt be considered genuine.
As long as there are coins, there will be scrutinization over them. "Genuine" and "Original" should go hand in hand, and this coin is both orginal and genuine, right ? Net Grading makes more sense every day.
<< <i>It isnt. I was far more annoyed that my two innocent trade dollars got rejected for no reason. We are now just having an academic discussion about what should or shouldnt be considered genuine. >>
That's cool, but as the Man has spoken on this one I doubt that his mind will change. I guess it's at their discression.
<< <i>It isnt. I was far more annoyed that my two innocent trade dollars got rejected for no reason. We are now just having an academic discussion about what should or shouldnt be considered genuine. >>
That's cool, but as the Man has spoken on this one I doubt that his mind will change. I guess it's at their discression. >>
Agreed, by showing the before and after pics where the head honcho can see them, he's on the floor shaking the hand of the grader who rejected your submission. I know your going to say you have nothing to hide, but by posting the repair done to this coin, you jumped into a bottomless pit.
Note: your rant thread was locked, please do not use this one to vent again.
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
I think it has less to do with the quality of the work, and more to do with which coins PCGS wants in their holders and is thus willing to make an exception for.
Interesting thread(s) and some good reads. We have more than once been advised to have work done on our 1870-s seated dollar similar to the work done on this gobrect. Mainly just 'smoothing' out wavy fields from previous 'smoothing(s?)'. However we've always insisted that the coin is what it is and the more work that is done to it, the less original/genuine the coin is.
This gobrecht thread seems to strengthen that position (although i doubt the 70-s would ever be denied a genuine holder with its pedigree).
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
I think it has less to do with the quality of the work, and more to do with which coins PCGS wants in their holders and is thus willing to make an exception for. >>
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA I just saw this post... it deserves to be in a genuine holder. The coin has remained relatively untouched for 80+ years and it's easy to track every time the coin was worked on starting with the intial engraving and the re-smoothing of the surfaces through auction appearances every decade or so.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
I think it has less to do with the quality of the work, and more to do with which coins PCGS wants in their holders and is thus willing to make an exception for. >>
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA I just saw this post... it deserves to be in a genuine holder. The coin has remained relatively untouched for 80+ years and it's easy to track every time the coin was worked on starting with the intial engraving and the re-smoothing of the surfaces through auction appearances every decade or so. >>
I agree that the 1870-S deserves to be a in a genuine holder.
But if it were a 1923 Peace Dollar in identically repaired condition with a similarly traceable 80+ year-old provenance (I know that's a stretch for a common coin like that, but assuming that such a piece did exist) I doubt PCGS would holder it.
In other words, I think the coin matters, and I think PCGS decides which coins they want in their holders.
I think the coin remains genuine no matter how much work was done to it. The surfaces and color would no longer be original, but does that stop a coin from being genuine. The color is certainly off and would probably remain so for a long time. I think slabbing the coin by PCGS would be much better for the hobby than leaving it as a coin to be slabbed by a less than ethical company as who knows what. As far as owning it, that is up to the prospective buyer to decide, imo.
Just like the hobo nickel in a previous post. The coin is and always will be genuine but the artwork is modern. That doesn't make the original coin any less genuine. Slabbing with the proper description seems to me to be the most helpful to the hobby.
<< <i>I think, from what I have seen, it could qualify for genuine. After all, it IS/Was an 1836 dollar. The fact that it has been SEVERLY altered does not change the fact that it was indeed made by the US mint.
It seems to me that the Genuine tag is applied to genuine US mint products, and for a coin to not get the genuine tag, it would be a counterfit or No longer the coin it started as Meaning, that a 1909 S VDB that has had the S added is NOT genuine...it was not an S VDB. This coin started as a 1836 dollar, and it still is an 1836 dollar.
I think the slabs should say WHY it was tagged genuine, not just genuine, however. This coin as an example should say "repaired, tooled".
Just the thoughts of someone who can't afford to play the grading game and as such is an impartial observer. >>
I know one thing, I'm done reading this thread. The coin should be engraved with "repaired and tooled" before placed in a genuine holder.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
The 1870 S Boyd coin may not be a fair comparison. This coin has a long distinguished pedigree and history and that fact that it resides in a PCGS holder means that the holder does have a significance in the marketplace. This is a double standard that the Company can make from time to time but I am sure this is an exception. They make the rules.... if you want their product... in fact you agree to them with every submission. You (your coin) are wanting them and I am sorry to say they do not want you this time. Find a bent, scratched and tooled 1894 S dime and send it in, I will bet it goes into their holder. That is the way it is....... I can accept it.
<< <i> But if it were a 1923 Peace Dollar in identically repaired condition with a similarly traceable 80+ year-old provenance (I know that's a stretch for a common coin like that, but assuming that such a piece did exist) I doubt PCGS would holder it. >>
If you could prove the provenence of a 1923 peace dollar in such condition for 80 years i'll send you one in a holder!
But I agree with your post (and have said nearly the exact same thing in a couple PMs). For coins like the 1870-s, 1913 nickel, 1894-s dime, 1804 dollar, etc., companies want those coins in their holders for publicity. If they can be proven real, they will slab genuine regardless of condition.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
I very much appreciate Don Willis weighing-in on this subject, but his statement "It's tough to describe exactly, but when we can't tell where the real coin ends and the repairs begin - that's over the line." bothers me. Doesn't "real coin" equate to genuine?
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
Maybe the repairs helped it, maybe they didn't. I think it looks better as a result. (How exactly was it done? It looks like the pits in the field were filled with metal instead of the field being cut down. Perhaps the no decision stems from the repair being too good.) If that were the only Gobrecht dollar I could afford, I'd want it certified. Coins like this are a pretty small part of the business I'd guess.
I like antique tools, and I bought a hammer from the colonial era at a flea market last summer. It was in good shape because both the handle and the head had been replaced at some point in the recent past.
<< <i>I believe as long as a coin can be determined to be a Mint product, and the date can be determined as well, it should be slabbed. Otherwise they're starting down a very slippery slope (which in the long term will have a greater impact on their reputation). >>
I agree with this 100% that if its a Mint product and the date can be determined it should be in a genuine holder.The whole point of genuine only holder is the coin has been altered i don't think it should matter to what degree. Long term effect on their reputation, Not sure about that.
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
<< <i>Restoring an empty field to an empty field doesnt change a coins genuiness. When you start re-engraving is when i think it becomes questionable. >>
The dentils were re-engraved at 11:00. Is it questionable yet?
<< <i>Restoring an empty field to an empty field doesnt change a coins genuiness. When you start re-engraving is when i think it becomes questionable. >>
The dentils were re-engraved at 11:00. Is it questionable yet? >>
Does PCGS slab coins in their genuine holders that have been holed and then plugged with the design details re-engraved in the plug area?
I don't think smoothing an empty field area or re-engraving a couple of denticles should make a coin ineligible for a gennie holder.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Years ago, I lived not to far from a Jeweler store. It was actually in walking distance. I stopped by there one day with a 1954-S Jefferson nickel that had a full strike and steps but there was a huge gouge in the obverse field. I asked if they were capable in removing the mark and they said that they could do it. Thinking about it now, there are probably far less of these 1954-S full steppers certified than Gobrecht dollars but not anywhere near as popular. When I asked for the cost for such work the gentleman replied, it won't cost you a thing because we're not doing it! He explained that a coin is a numismatic item that cannot be changed to something that would be viewed as deceptive. The following articles intrinsic value, marginalism and the value of goods may help shed some light on how an altered coin should be viewed. It's obviously not a US Mint product any longer when the fields or surfaces of the coin have been changed to something else by a party outside of the US Mint. The US Mint cannot even lay claims that they made this coin. It's like Johnny Cash's great song, "One Piece At A Time", if such a car was built, what car manufacturer could claim that car was a product of their company? The serious problem with this coin is the history of it and how to attach that history to the coin permanently so no collector will ever be deceived by it? And the only way to do that without destroying it altogether would be to have the coin engraved with, "tooled and repaired" the same way replicas are inscribed with the word "copy".
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>PCGS certified this piece as "genuine". Probably right, but how could they be sure?
>>
Wow! That coin appears to have had a lot more work performed on it than the Gobrecht silver dollar coin that was body bagged.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Part of the equation must focus on the frequency a coin is seen counterfeited. For example, and easy enough to understand, the Trade dollar is common in a counterfeit condition. The 1836, not as much, but still often found counterfeit. The $50. gold? I've never heard of a this large coin being counterfeited nor have I seen one (perhaps due to the value and cost of replicating it).
I'd think that helps PCGS determine the state of the authenticity when examining the coin(s).
It was the two trade dollars that caused my consternation. Because I think they got guilt by association.
Guilt by association is more common than you think. If you have a nice group of coins to be sent in, do you toss in a bunch of low end junk with it to save on postage? Well, not unless you want the graders to be influenced by your other choices of coins.
When an old car is completely restored, it's common for little or no of the original surface to still show either, but it's still considered to be the make/model it started as.
Only if most of the original parts of that car were reused in the restoration. It's not uncommon for body panels and drivetrains to be replaced with reproduction or aftermarket/different year parts. At some point the "restored" car is no longer worth anything close to an original specimen though most will identify the car as appearing to be the stated make/model. The prices fetched by "all there" restored/original cars tends to support this. A hodge-podge of misc parts slapped together to "look" like the former car is nothing more than a kit or fantasy car. The original paint is not the main issue, but everything else under it. Of course pristine original paint cars are often worth as much or even more than fully restored cars.
Comments
<< <i>I think if the earlier deeply gouged coin was submitted that may have been slabbed genuine, but the altered one is too deceiving to slab. >>
Here is a PCGS Genuine FH Dollar I won on teletrade a few months ago. Same thing, repair work on the obverse field.
TELETRADE
My Early Large Cents
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>Here is a PCGS Genuine FH Dollar..... >>
That's a good looking FH $1 for a grand!
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is a PCGS Genuine FH Dollar..... >>
That's a good looking FH $1 for a grand! >>
I get all the good deals dude!
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>
<< <i>An altered date is still a genuine mint product. It's just not considered a marketable coin in the eyes of the numismatic world.
An altered coin with major repairs is still genuine. >>
By that logic this should be slabbed as a genuine 1937 Buffalo nickel
Good use of the extreeeeeeeeeme example to make a point!
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
Not sure if this has been asked yet - Why is so important for you to get this one in plastic? Just curious....
<< <i>I believe as long as a coin can be determined to be a Mint product, and the date can be determined as well, it should be slabbed. Otherwise they're starting down a very slippery slope (which in the long term will have a greater impact on their reputation). >>
Suppose one were to cut a coin in half and repair each half such that the results were two "whole" coins. Both are "Mint products", at least in part. Or are they?
My Early Large Cents
"Genuine" and "Original" should go hand in hand, and this coin is both orginal and genuine, right ?
Net Grading makes more sense every day.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>It isnt. I was far more annoyed that my two innocent trade dollars got rejected for no reason. We are now just having an academic discussion about what should or shouldnt be considered genuine. >>
That's cool, but as the Man has spoken on this one I doubt that his mind will change. I guess it's at their discression.
<< <i>
<< <i>It isnt. I was far more annoyed that my two innocent trade dollars got rejected for no reason. We are now just having an academic discussion about what should or shouldnt be considered genuine. >>
That's cool, but as the Man has spoken on this one I doubt that his mind will change. I guess it's at their discression. >>
Agreed, by showing the before and after pics where the head honcho can see them, he's on the floor shaking the hand of the grader who rejected your submission. I know your going to say you have nothing to hide, but by posting the repair done to this coin, you jumped into a bottomless pit.
Note: your rant thread was locked, please do not use this one to vent again.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
I think it has less to do with the quality of the work, and more to do with which coins PCGS wants in their holders and is thus willing to make an exception for.
This gobrecht thread seems to strengthen that position (although i doubt the 70-s would ever be denied a genuine holder with its pedigree).
<< <i>
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
I think it has less to do with the quality of the work, and more to do with which coins PCGS wants in their holders and is thus willing to make an exception for. >>
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA I just saw this post... it deserves to be in a genuine holder. The coin has remained relatively untouched for 80+ years and it's easy to track every time the coin was worked on starting with the intial engraving and the re-smoothing of the surfaces through auction appearances every decade or so.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How is this THIS coin genuine. But mine isnt? It really seems to come down to the quality of the work. The better the work, the less genuine the coin is. >>
I think it has less to do with the quality of the work, and more to do with which coins PCGS wants in their holders and is thus willing to make an exception for. >>
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA I just saw this post... it deserves to be in a genuine holder. The coin has remained relatively untouched for 80+ years and it's easy to track every time the coin was worked on starting with the intial engraving and the re-smoothing of the surfaces through auction appearances every decade or so. >>
I agree that the 1870-S deserves to be a in a genuine holder.
But if it were a 1923 Peace Dollar in identically repaired condition with a similarly traceable 80+ year-old provenance (I know that's a stretch for a common coin like that, but assuming that such a piece did exist) I doubt PCGS would holder it.
In other words, I think the coin matters, and I think PCGS decides which coins they want in their holders.
Just like the hobo nickel in a previous post. The coin is and always will be genuine but the artwork is modern. That doesn't make the original coin any less genuine. Slabbing with the proper description seems to me to be the most helpful to the hobby.
<< <i>I think, from what I have seen, it could qualify for genuine. After all, it IS/Was an 1836 dollar. The fact that it has been SEVERLY altered does not change the fact that it was indeed made by the US mint.
It seems to me that the Genuine tag is applied to genuine US mint products, and for a coin to not get the genuine tag, it would be a counterfit or No longer the coin it started as Meaning, that a 1909 S VDB that has had the S added is NOT genuine...it was not an S VDB. This coin started as a 1836 dollar, and it still is an 1836 dollar.
I think the slabs should say WHY it was tagged genuine, not just genuine, however. This coin as an example should say "repaired, tooled".
Just the thoughts of someone who can't afford to play the grading game and as such is an impartial observer. >>
I know one thing, I'm done reading this thread. The coin should be engraved with "repaired and tooled" before placed in a genuine holder.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
But if it were a 1923 Peace Dollar in identically repaired condition with a similarly traceable 80+ year-old provenance (I know that's a stretch for a common coin like that, but assuming that such a piece did exist) I doubt PCGS would holder it.
>>
If you could prove the provenence of a 1923 peace dollar in such condition for 80 years i'll send you one in a holder!
But I agree with your post (and have said nearly the exact same thing in a couple PMs). For coins like the 1870-s, 1913 nickel, 1894-s dime, 1804 dollar, etc., companies want those coins in their holders for publicity. If they can be proven real, they will slab genuine regardless of condition.
I have no idea how they do that but the letters by the date can't be flattened out that well can they?
so my question is -
What if the weight of the coin now, is higher than allowed mint tolerences (allowing for wear)?
and the graders felt it probably was USmint made, but because of the fix, they can't tell
would that be called questionable authenticity? or no decision/refund?
Than the innertube becomes a patch.
<< <i>I believe as long as a coin can be determined to be a Mint product, and the date can be determined as well, it should be slabbed. Otherwise they're starting down a very slippery slope (which in the long term will have a greater impact on their reputation). >>
I agree with this 100% that if its a Mint product and the date can be determined it should be in a genuine holder.The whole point of genuine only holder is the coin has been altered i don't think it should matter to what degree. Long term effect on their reputation, Not sure about that.
<< <i>Restoring an empty field to an empty field doesnt change a coins genuiness. When you start re-engraving is when i think it becomes questionable. >>
The dentils were re-engraved at 11:00. Is it questionable yet?
<< <i>
<< <i>Restoring an empty field to an empty field doesnt change a coins genuiness. When you start re-engraving is when i think it becomes questionable. >>
The dentils were re-engraved at 11:00. Is it questionable yet? >>
Does PCGS slab coins in their genuine holders that have been holed and then plugged with the design details re-engraved in the plug area?
I don't think smoothing an empty field area or re-engraving a couple of denticles should make a coin ineligible for a gennie holder.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
He explained that a coin is a numismatic item that cannot be changed to something that would be viewed as deceptive.
The following articles intrinsic value, marginalism and the value of goods may help shed some light on how an altered coin should be viewed. It's obviously not a US Mint product any longer when the fields or surfaces of the coin have been changed to something else by a party outside of the US Mint. The US Mint cannot even lay claims that they made this coin. It's like Johnny Cash's great song, "One Piece At A Time", if such a car was built, what car manufacturer could claim that car was a product of their company?
The serious problem with this coin is the history of it and how to attach that history to the coin permanently so no collector will ever be deceived by it? And the only way to do that without destroying it altogether would be to have the coin engraved with, "tooled and repaired" the same way replicas are inscribed with the word "copy".
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>PCGS certified this piece as "genuine". Probably right, but how could they be sure?
Wow! That coin appears to have had a lot more work performed on it than the Gobrecht silver dollar coin that was body bagged.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The $50. gold? I've never heard of a this large coin being counterfeited nor have I seen one (perhaps due to the value and cost of replicating it).
I'd think that helps PCGS determine the state of the authenticity when examining the coin(s).
peacockcoins
Guilt by association is more common than you think. If you have a nice group of coins to be sent in, do you toss in a bunch of low end junk with it to save on postage? Well, not unless you want the graders to be influenced by your other choices of coins.
When an old car is completely restored, it's common for little or no of the original surface to still show either, but it's still considered to be the make/model it started as.
Only if most of the original parts of that car were reused in the restoration. It's not uncommon for body panels and drivetrains to be replaced with reproduction or aftermarket/different year parts. At some point the "restored" car is no longer worth anything close to an original specimen though most will identify the car as appearing to be the stated make/model. The prices fetched by "all there" restored/original cars tends to support this. A hodge-podge of misc parts slapped together to "look" like the former car is nothing more than a kit or fantasy car. The original paint is not the main issue, but everything else under it. Of course pristine original paint cars are often worth as much or even more than fully restored cars.
roadrunner