R&I Coins....
bidask
Posts: 14,047 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was looking at their ad in the current coin world addition.
They offer high end moderns at what seems to be extemely strong prices, for example, a 1961 washington 25 in ngc pf 69 ultra cam for $1100 citing a pop of 'only' 57. His prices asked on franklins are the highest I have ever seen published.
Now admittedly I am not a collector per se of moderns....and I know he wrote a book on franklins .but I am curious about his buy prices on such material. I think I am going to call him and ask.
They offer high end moderns at what seems to be extemely strong prices, for example, a 1961 washington 25 in ngc pf 69 ultra cam for $1100 citing a pop of 'only' 57. His prices asked on franklins are the highest I have ever seen published.
Now admittedly I am not a collector per se of moderns....and I know he wrote a book on franklins .but I am curious about his buy prices on such material. I think I am going to call him and ask.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
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rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>Do you want generic, or nice?? >>
I want to know his bid levels on the coins he offers for sale.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You may ask him for his buyback on a particular coin
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RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Market maker.
Doesn't he make a two way market in what he sells?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I don't collect Franklins, but I certainly remember that thread. It's a good lesson in some of the realities on the coin business, and the power of marketing. The problem, of course, comes when some dealers won't stand behind what they sell and won't work to establish a two-way market. When a dealer, who is promoting a series, stops supporting what he sells (i.e., doesn't want to buy the coins back at reasonable wholesale prices) then the result is a downward spiral in coin values, and collectors holding such coins will take bit hits if they paid strong money to get those coins. >>
Which stilfes interest in that series as well I would imagine.
<< <i>BidAsk - Don't you remember posting in this thread? >>
Well, the answer I got from Paw Paw in that thread wasn't what I was quite expecting
And especially a dealer like R&I.
Why, because I cannot find any reasonable prices published anywhwere to compare too, not Coin Values, PCGS prices, CDN, or even scarcely auction records....
At least most coin series have some valuation measures that dealers and collecotrs can play in.
His prices asked seem very high with nothing to compare too! So if he IS the market for such high grade coins, much less publishing books on these series, certainly I'd like to know what his buy prices are in case I get lucky and find a unopened proof set from the early 60's that has a gem cameo frankie in it I could sell him!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
EDIT
Having read the other thread complete, I see that that will never happen !!!!! WOW
<< <i>His prices asked seem very high with nothing to compare too! So if he IS the market for such high grade coins, much less publishing books on these series, certainly I'd like to know what his buy prices are in case I get lucky and find a unopened proof set from the early 60's that has a gem cameo frankie in it I could sell him! >>
So you don't really want to participate in the high-grade Franklin market unless you can make a lot of money on cherrypicks? Good thing you're not a dealer- you'd get crucified using that particular tactic.
<< <i>To bad R&I didn't do an Eagleeye Photoseal type thing. I know Rick Snow firmly stands behind his product and is a 2 way market maker. >>
There was forum testimonial to the contrary a few years ago. In fact, they would not even take CoinLieutenant's phone call, IIRC. Perhaps the business model has changed since then.
Edit: The negative thread that I am referring to is about R&I, not Rick Snow.
<< <i>
<< <i>His prices asked seem very high with nothing to compare too! So if he IS the market for such high grade coins, much less publishing books on these series, certainly I'd like to know what his buy prices are in case I get lucky and find a unopened proof set from the early 60's that has a gem cameo frankie in it I could sell him! >>
So you don't really want to participate in the high-grade Franklin market unless you can make a lot of money on cherrypicks? Good thing you're not a dealer- you'd get crucified using that particular tactic.
Does any one here NOT want that? Or are we all into losing money here?
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't collect Franklins, but I certainly remember that thread. It's a good lesson in some of the realities on the coin business, and the power of marketing. The problem, of course, comes when some dealers won't stand behind what they sell and won't work to establish a two-way market. When a dealer, who is promoting a series, stops supporting what he sells (i.e., doesn't want to buy the coins back at reasonable wholesale prices) then the result is a downward spiral in coin values, and collectors holding such coins will take bit hits if they paid strong money to get those coins. >>
Which stilfes interest in that series as well I would imagine. >>
Good British understatement. One of my new collecting interests is toned Morgans---and a particular firm that has been recently advertising such coins won't get any of my business, even if its business model has changed.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Does any one here NOT want that? Or are we all into losing money here? >>
I think it's unreasonable to expect that *anybody* (dealer, collector, investor, whatever) has an obligation to "make a market" in order to provide you (in general- not directed at any specific poster) with a windfall unless that individual has expressly committed to doing just that (making a market, that is).
And selling high-end coins is, of itself, not such a commitment.
I know this is not likely to be a popular position to take, but there it is, nonetheless.
edited to add... and because it's probably not self-evident, the fact I argue in favor of a particular idea or business practice is in no way proof that I believe that idea or practice is the best way to run a business. Or that I would make the same choices should I find myself in the same position as the person I'm arguing for. So there.
<< <i>
<< <i>Does any one here NOT want that? Or are we all into losing money here? >>
I think it's unreasonable to expect that *anybody* (dealer, collector, investor, whatever) has an obligation to "make a market" in order to provide you (in general- not directed at any specific poster) with a windfall unless that individual has expressly committed to doing just that (making a market, that is).
And selling high-end coins is, of itself, not such a commitment.
I know this is not likely to be a popular position to take, but there it is, nonetheless.
edited to add... and because it's probably not self-evident, the fact I argue in favor of a particular idea or business practice is in no way proof that I believe that idea or practice is the best way to run a business. Or that I would make the same choices should I find myself in the same position as the person I'm arguing for. So there.
To the extent that NO collector is owed a windfall (or even a profit) from a dealer who sold him a coin, I agree with you. However, if a dealer won't stand behind what he sells, I can only say that I would feel like a royal chump if I continued to buy coins from him. In my view, standing behind ones coins means being willing to buy them back for fair wholesale prices, which may be lower than the customer's purchase prices because of market fluctuations.
Most collectors do have an interest in the financial aspects of their collections---this includes an 'exit' strategy. If you realistically cannot sell coins back to the dealer(s) from whom you bought them in the first place (and paid strong money), then your options are more limited than otherwise. This is particularly serious in cases where the coins comprise a niche area of the hobby.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>However, if a dealer won't stand behind what he sells, I can only say that I would feel like a royal chump if I continued to buy coins from him. >>
Certainly, a reasonable position for a buyer to take. Part of being a responsible adult is determining what is important to you in a purchase and making sure the person you're buying from provides that before completing the deal, wouldn't you agree? The problem, as I see it, is far too many people *don't* do this- they go along assuming things that may not, in fact, be true. If you want any sort of buyback assurance, maybe the time to ask about it is before you buy. Just a thought.
<< <i>In my view, standing behind ones coins means being willing to buy them back for fair wholesale prices, which may be lower than the customer's purchase prices because of market fluctuations. >>
Fair enough, but I don't know that there is any obligation on the part of a seller to do that, unless they have agreed to do so. Which brings us back to buyers needing to accept responsibility for their side of the deal. Or not, if pounding your head on the desk in frustration when things don't work out as you imagined they would is your idea of a good time.
Read all the threads about High grade franklins tanking over the last couple of years before you write the big check. I like frankies and all those threads about Franklins tanking made me buy some. I got some really nice coins at dirt prices if you ask me. I may be buried in them but i did not break the bank buying them,
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
gold coins in the past, circ Lincoln pennies. Any buy back truly, is worth only the
market buy price to any dealer.If you bought the coin from the dealer and have a
fairly good relationship, I would expect a slightly stronger buyback price as the dealer
should reduce their profit margin somewhat.
Camelot
All dealers are happy to buy the coins they sell at "reasonable wholesale prices", or at least something close to that. However, some dealers choose not to offer such prices because they don't want to admit how badly they treated you when you were a buyer and not a seller.
So if he IS the market for such high grade coins, much less publishing books on these series, certainly I'd like to know what his buy prices are in case I get lucky and find a unopened proof set from the early 60's that has a gem cameo frankie in it I could sell him!
If it's as simple as that, you can wait.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...All dealers are happy to buy the coins they sell at "reasonable wholesale prices", or at least something close to that. However, some dealers choose not to offer such prices because they don't want to admit how badly they treated you when you were a buyer and not a seller.
>>
That's an excellent point, which I hope will not be overlooked. And I will put it another way - just because you are offered a fraction of what you paid for a coin does not necessarily mean the offer is unfair.
<< <i>......a fraction is better then no offer at all >>
True, but Andy already gave a good reason why the original seller might not want to make any offer at all.
Edited to add: On the subject of dealers making two way markets (or not), here is what I posted in another thread on the topic, earlier today....
Regarding a dealer making a two way market in the coins he or she handles......
Unless there is an agreement that it will be done, I don't think a dealer has any obligation to make offers on or buy back coins he or she has sold. However, I believe that it should still be done, as a matter of good business and customer service.
For example, if I buy a coin at $2600 and sell it at $3000 and the client wants to trade or sell it back to me at a future date..... Assuming the market hasn't changed, what's wrong with offering to buy it back for the same $2600 or thereabouts? Or taking it on consignment at a slightly higher price? if I believed in the coin at the time I sold it, shouldn't I still believe in it if/when my client offers it back to me?
Generally speaking, I offer to buy back coins at approximately 85% of what I would try to sell them for at the time. Exceptions would be if the coin had been a consigned item of the type I don't typically handle or at a higher price than I would normally ask. And in those instances, I try to make the buyer aware of that at the time I sell it.
I like it when my clients contact me and offer coins I have sold to them. I look at it as a good source of nice coins. Sure I feel badly if I can't offer them a profit or offer them a loss. But making what I think is a fair buy-back offer is sure a lot better than saying "no thanks", or whatever.
What I was trying to articulate (evidently unsuccessfully) is the need for an exit strategy (unless a collector never plans on selling anything). I have drifted in and out of various kinds of coins, putting together sets and then selling them years later once I was tired of them. My concern about venues for selling coins led me to make the two-way comment, and I have refrained from collecting certain types of coins (and currency, exonumia, etc.) because I refuse to tie up large amounts of money (well, large for me, anyway) in collectibles that may have little value to others. For me, an exit strategy is a consideration to ponder before I start collecting a new series. If the major marketer won't routinely buy back what he sells, then I see that as a problem.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
and the issue gets compounded when said dealer charges 3 and 4 times more then other dealers of a particular niche ;
and if that same dealer advertises that he/she is eager to buy such material ............
on one hand the dealer is portraying the coins they are selling as the very best , the top of the heap ,
and yet when offered the same coins to buy ,( even though advertising to buy such coins ) - no offer is made
To me that's a catch-22 , in which one wants the cake and eats it too