Should Krause World book prices be ignored?
mumu
Posts: 1,840
I am researching fair market value on a certain coin which is becoming impossible because it has apparently never sold anywhere. Now Krause lists the coin in UNC @ 850$ and 900 in BU. Problem with this is that the coin is ~1.2 ounces of gold. (41 gram coin @ .9 gold). This would put the coin at NEGATIVE numismatic value versus the spot price of gold at any time in the past 3 years, so even if the 2010 edition of Krause which I have was printed well before 2010, the price just doesnt seem anywhere near.
I have tracked the coin down and was quoted a price of 2500-3000. This is a very low mintage piece(under 1000). The only price reference I have is this Krause estimate. I know its wrong right off the bat but just how wrong is it? Should it be thrown out the window completely and does anyone have any other usggestions on researching the true value of such a piece any other way? Thanks.
I have tracked the coin down and was quoted a price of 2500-3000. This is a very low mintage piece(under 1000). The only price reference I have is this Krause estimate. I know its wrong right off the bat but just how wrong is it? Should it be thrown out the window completely and does anyone have any other usggestions on researching the true value of such a piece any other way? Thanks.
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Comments
<< <i>Most bullion coins are sold based upon scrap value of the gold and you should be able to get 90-95% of the scrap value from a reputable dealer that takes bullion. In the front of Krause, they will tell you the spot prices for the metals that they based their prices on for that edition. Krause, like most coin guides, lists a full retail value for the coin and you will never be able to sell it for that. Whatever you do, don't sell it to one of those "cash for gold" outfits that are proliferating right now. You'd be lucky to get 40% of scrap value. Even with mintages of 1000, supply far exceeds demand in most cases, unless it is a coin intended for actual circulation .. not iust for looking at. >>
Thanks for th einfo. My research is in terms of trying to aquire the coin though and not in selling it. As such it appears difficult to do so with the same(in reverse) philosophy that you have stated above. However having found now 1 instance of the coin being sold(thanks to this same post being posted on another forum) I now have a guideline to help not getting ripped off if I ever purchase the coin. Anyway thanks for the reply and in a sense it is helpful for another issue I have in that I do have some scrap gold I'd like to sell. Now I just need to find one of these dealers you mention who pay 90-95 for scrap gold
Gary
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>I am researching fair market value on a certain coin which is becoming impossible because it has apparently never sold anywhere. Now Krause lists the coin in UNC @ 850$ and 900 in BU. Problem with this is that the coin is ~1.2 ounces of gold. (41 gram coin @ .9 gold). This would put the coin at NEGATIVE numismatic value versus the spot price of gold at any time in the past 3 years, so even if the 2010 edition of Krause which I have was printed well before 2010, the price just doesnt seem anywhere near.
I have tracked the coin down and was quoted a price of 2500-3000. This is a very low mintage piece(under 1000). The only price reference I have is this Krause estimate. I know its wrong right off the bat but just how wrong is it? Should it be thrown out the window completely and does anyone have any other usggestions on researching the true value of such a piece any other way? Thanks. >>
What is the coin?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>In the areas I collect Krause is fairly meaningless for actual prices. It does generally give you a good idea of relative rarity (cost). >>
Same here. And they went on a binge a few years ago removing photos, so now its even more useless. Imagine that, no photos for patterns! How you going to ID them?
What is hot and what is not before press and seeing it outdated quickly
Condition rarity- placing a value on such coins
Real rarity- placing reasonable valuations
Should be ignored? No- just remember that it is a guide- and only a guide
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
What one should do is probably use Krause in conjuction with the POP reports (both PCGS & NGC) and HA Archives - once you put those three factors together you might get a pretty good idea what the value is. personally I think the trio are a must!
Of course its best to consult someone that knows said area of coins/country etc that you are looking into - or getting to know it damn weel if you are doing it alone.
Patience is a virtue
Marc
of true value to a tiny fraction of real value. They tend to be a fraction of
real value.
I can give you a few rules of thumbs for gold but it can be complicated and
inaccurate.
Start with a pre-1980 Krause and if the coin has a large premium and is
gold then it probably is still worth a significant premium. This doesn't apply
so well to post WWII gold though. A lot of it won't normally trade at a pre-
mium.
If value is not condition dependent it does help a little.
If it's popular like China the premium is real. Don't just assume that the
premium is relative to gold value, if it had a $400 premium at low gold
prices then it won't necessarily at higher ones. Many of these premiums
just get erased as gold price increases.
There are quite a few more modern gold pieces that actually have demand.
These can be so hard to find that they have good premiums. The Jamaican
Bob Marley coin comes to mind.
Collectors can usually get away with paying premiums for stuff but inves-
tors tend to get burned.
FOR SALE Items
<< <i>
<< <i>I am researching fair market value on a certain coin which is becoming impossible because it has apparently never sold anywhere. Now Krause lists the coin in UNC @ 850$ and 900 in BU. Problem with this is that the coin is ~1.2 ounces of gold. (41 gram coin @ .9 gold). This would put the coin at NEGATIVE numismatic value versus the spot price of gold at any time in the past 3 years, so even if the 2010 edition of Krause which I have was printed well before 2010, the price just doesnt seem anywhere near.
I have tracked the coin down and was quoted a price of 2500-3000. This is a very low mintage piece(under 1000). The only price reference I have is this Krause estimate. I know its wrong right off the bat but just how wrong is it? Should it be thrown out the window completely and does anyone have any other usggestions on researching the true value of such a piece any other way? Thanks. >>
What is the coin? >>
1969 Uruguay Mil Pesos FAO issue in gold. Thanks everyone ofr the answers.
<< <i>Should Krause World book prices be ignored? >>
No, but they should be taken with a healthy dose of salt!
<< <i>
1969 Uruguay Mil Pesos FAO issue in gold. Thanks everyone ofr the answers. >>
That's a beautiful coin and should be spectacular in gold.
The '76 doesn't list a price and the '86 lists it as a pattern for $500. My guess is
that thisa coin really warrants a premium with a mintage of 450 but it might not
be easy to get it. I'm confident the coin will be tough to find.
My experience with gold coins is that the market is highly selective and quite small.
<< <i>
<< <i>
1969 Uruguay Mil Pesos FAO issue in gold. Thanks everyone ofr the answers. >>
That's a beautiful coin and should be spectacular in gold.
The '76 doesn't list a price and the '86 lists it as a pattern for $500. My guess is
that thisa coin really warrants a premium with a mintage of 450 but it might not
be easy to get it. I'm confident the coin will be tough to find.
My experience with gold coins is that the market is highly selective and quite small. >>
My newest Krause doesn't even list the weight or fineness of the coin
For the haters in the crowd I would suggest that THEY try and put together just, say A-C and see how it goes...I would not base a multi-thousand dollar auction bid on the values listed. I think it makes it a bit fun if as CladKing says they have some recent base metal minors listed at a fraction of their worth (?!).
Well, just Love coins, period.
Certainly I did not mean it in the traditional sense of the word & did not mean to offend.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>For the haters in the crowd I would suggest that THEY try and put together just, say A-C and see how it goes... >>
No doubt, putting a catalog like the SCWC out is a difficult undertaking. On the other hand, if you're going to advertise your catalog as "delivering comprehensive pricing compiled from data provided by 150 experts worldwide", I'd suggest you have at least a minimal obligation to verify that the information you're publishing is somewhat accurate. If nothing else, there should be a note under each country in the catalog with the date of the last pricing update for that country. JMO.
<< <i>I find that there is a lot of information in the Krause books and that they do generally, at least in the area of coins I know (Gr. Britain 19th and 20th C. milled predecimal) to have fairly accurate information - this catalog absolutely can NOT be all things to all people. It should serve to give decent introductory information, sometimes more.
For the haters in the crowd I would suggest that THEY try and put together just, say A-C and see how it goes...I would not base a multi-thousand dollar auction bid on the values listed. I think it makes it a bit fun if as CladKing says they have some recent base metal minors listed at a fraction of their worth (?!). >>
I wouldn't say hate is necessarily the right word but it's pretty galling
to have to buy this piece of junk when they apparently aren't making
any real attempt to fix the pricing. I used to keep up with the real mar-
ket on moderns because it's my ballpark but can't any longer and am
at the mercy of Krause. Many of these are quite fluid and rapidly chan-
ging but the price remains fixed in the catalog. Many can be bought for
a piitance if you can find a seller but you can't find a seller because the
coins are rare and the catalog doesn't reflect true market prices. This
simply stifles the market on something like a 1983 Irish 50P. If the val-
ue listed in Krause were updated to what these are offered for then
more would be able to trade hands ands a few more would come out
of the woodwork. I see this coin at $150 while Krause lists it as common.
Modern French can be almost impossible in true unc so even XF prices
are high in France but these list mostly under $1 in Krause even in unc!
There are some coins like the mid-'60's Turkish coins that they list at ve-
ry high prices but they appear in mint sets that they list for only a few
dollars. The finest specimens appear in the sets and I've never been
able to distinguish these from circulation issues.
This goes across the board. They raised Malta prices recently but I
don't know if this is justified or not. As a rule if a coin is listed as cheap,
unc, base metal, and modern it is probably underpriced unless it's one
of the many hoard coins. But I don't know which ones unless I do the
legwork myself. Some of this stuff I know is scarce. It doesn't necessa-
rily warrant a high price because that requires demand. Try finding coins
like CN Indian in unc, or modern Japan or China. There's a lot of stuff
that isn't seen and Krause isn't reacting as the demand builds and
some prices are becoming outdated.
AAaaRRrgggHHhh.
They do alright with a few popular countries from popular eras to col-
lect. But I don't put much faith in a lot of their prices and tire of them
taking it upon themselves to change the names of entitre countries. The
worst was when they dropped the "El" from "El Salvador" a few years
back.
Olmanjon
http://bit.ly/bxi7py
<< <i>I buy most of my base metal coins at 50% of Krause. I have no problem with that. However, this is not the reason I have the Krause books. I have over 10,000 coins from over 300 differant countries and I use the Krause books to keep a running inventory of what I have. I have just circled the date and condition of each coin. That way I know I have it somewhere in my collection. How else would you keep track of your collection?
Olmanjon >>
In this case the coin in question is priced at around spot of its base metal(gold), which would surely be nice if I could apply your 50% formula to
<< <i>I buy most of my base metal coins at 50% of Krause. >>
<< <i>In this case the coin in question is priced at around spot of its base metal(gold) >>
A great example of the vagaries of the English language. At first glance it looks as though both of you are talking about the same thing, but in "my base metal coins" "base" means "not precious", i.e. copper, bronze,aluminum, nickel, and their various alloys; while in "its base metal" "base" means basic or foundational. In other words, you are using other words that just sound the same and have the same spelling.
<< <i>
<< <i>I buy most of my base metal coins at 50% of Krause. >>
<< <i>In this case the coin in question is priced at around spot of its base metal(gold) >>
A great example of the vagaries of the English language. At first glance it looks as though both of you are talking about the same thing, but in "my base metal coins" "base" means "not precious", i.e. copper, bronze,aluminum, nickel, and their various alloys; while in "its base metal" "base" means basic or foundational. In other words, you are using other words that just sound the same and have the same spelling. >>
I assumed base meant not alloys, but I suppose all coins are alloys to some extent. In this case I was the one using the wrong terminology.
<< <i>I buy most of my base metal coins at 50% of Krause. I have no problem with that. However, this is not the reason I have the Krause books. I have over 10,000 coins from over 300 differant countries and I use the Krause books to keep a running inventory of what I have. I have just circled the date and condition of each coin. That way I know I have it somewhere in my collection. How else would you keep track of your collection?
>>
This is a great price for a collector to pay for modern base metal coins in unc. You'll
probably do very well on them. An investor paying the same price probably would
lose his shirt because of not having one of everything and knowing a good deal when
he sees it. An investor will end up buying hundreds of examples of distressingly com-
mon coins for every scarce one he lucks into.
On average Krause price probably averages about 40% of a reasonable valuation
on modern uncs. But they're all over the map so you'll get a lot of great bargains if
you're paying 50%.
<< <i>On average Krause price probably averages about 40% of a reasonable valuation
on modern uncs. But they're all over the map so you'll get a lot of great bargains if
you're paying 50%. >>
Before I moved, the local dealer was selling me all the world coins he got in that I wanted at half catalog as long as I looked them up and graded them first. Hard to beat that, when you can find some 50+ year old gems that list for 25 cents...