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The first Morgan dollars....?

According to receipts in [NARA-P entry 17, box 1], the Coiner received payment for new silver dollars from the Mint Director on:

March 12, 1878 $203
March 13, 1878 $300
March 14, 1878 $200
March 16, 1878 $150

Comments

  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,473 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there a reasonable cause to believe that all of these 853 coins would have been struck off the VAM 9 dies, thus ending the question about the total mintage of this rarity?

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
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  • JJMJJM Posts: 8,030 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there a reasonable cause to believe that all of these 853 coins would have been struck off the VAM 9 dies, thus ending the question about the total mintage of this rarity? >>



    interesting !!!!!
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  • dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭
    An interesting discovery. As these figures do not match known deliveries of Morgan dollars,
    it is clear that Linderman had ordered these pieces for a particular purpose. It is likely that
    this was done to make specimens available at face value to local citizens and Government
    officials in the Washington area.

    Denga
  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭
    Adams & Woodin mention an early version of Morgan's Standard Silver Dollar that they designated #1561


    This 'pattern' has five berries and letter 'A' of AMERICA not touching wing (also missing "M" from bow knot)


    Could that have been from this die pairing?

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • LewyLewy Posts: 594
    This certainly shouldn't directly relate to any further conjecture about the vam-9 thing.

    In fact, receipts speak for very little in themselves.

    What would be far more interesting (and telling) is to what form of payment was processed to acquire these receipts? A government voucher (possible paper trail), or Federal currency, or an IOU or what?

    Then, what was the final disposition of these coins? Returned to the mint (possible paper trail), or kept privately by Linderman, or given away as gifts?
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,096 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this to say that the Morgan dollars were first minted 109 years before I was born, to the day? I see they did not do anything on the Ides of March.
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭
    March 15, 1878 was a Friday. It would be interesting to know why the Mint did not strike dollars that day.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    The standard report is that the first Morgan dollars were struck for circulation on March 11, 1878. (Some of the local VAMpires could correct that if it’s wrong.)

    As Denga suggests, the coins Linderman ordered were likely for members of Congress who had pushed the bill through over the President’s veto, and Treasury officials. There was considerable interest in both Morgan's design and the rejected one by Willie Barber. Linderman and Bosbyshell kept lists of people wanting to buy the Barber coin (in addition to the pattern pieces distributed the previous December).

    For Lewy: As to payment, for official uses it would be by government funds credit. If for personal use, Linderman used either a check or current coin – commonly gold for gold/silver for silver. In a few instances, the Philadelphia Mint also accepted fine bullion of the correct amount, although that was unusual.
  • garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭
    And there is plenty of speculation as to how many VAM 9's were struck and how many survive. There are members here better equipped to summarize the original newspaper report and the current theory. I will defer to them.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    March 15, 1878 was a Friday. It would be interesting to know why the Mint did not strike dollars that day.

    The dates/quantities are from payment receipts, not production records. They give us no information about when the listed coins were struck.
  • LewyLewy Posts: 594
    There is one thing that I find interestingly peculiar about these 'receipts' , and that is that they seem to defy the daily silver dollar coinage totals as supplied in the Van Alllen / Malis book "The Comprehensive Catalogue & Encyclopedia of US Morgan & Peace Silver Dollars".

    In the book, the number of pieces struck for March 11th 1878 was 303 (all delivered to Linderman on March 12th). I had always wondered, 'if this is factual, then why? Why would the entire production amount be delivered the following day to the mint director? Anyway, the book states that the total production on March 12th was 100 pieces, and that the mint did not begin producing a reasonable amount of coins until March 13th with (what I believe to be an estimated total of) 40,000 pieces. 85,000 on March 14th. 48,000 plus 100 proofs on March 15th .

    Not taking the book as fiction, my guess has always been that the reason for low production levels on the first two days (March 11-12) was due to a lack of dies to strike with. My speculation was that the vam-9 die pair may have been the only pair available during the first two days of production.

    Back to the receipts though; Linderman was issued a receipt dated March 12th for $203 when 303 pieces were struck the day previously. I have little doubt but that the March 13th receipt for $300 was also issued for pieces that were stuck the previous day.

    Either Linderman was paying in advance (which I doubt) , or maybe the source of information in the book requires some salt, as the total production for the first two days (per the book) is only 403, and the receipts are for $503.

  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Lewy:
    Good points. I did not find a copy of the early production reports, but I wasn't looking for them either.... The Annual Assay Commission minutes don’t help any – often they will break out the Assay coins by delivery date, but CY 1878 omits that.

    Perhaps a board member has access to the original documents from which the published information was derived.


  • garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭
    I believe that the number 303, representing the number of VAM 9's minted is not correct. There are too many known examples out there to justify that number.
  • garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭


    << <i>March 15, 1878 was a Friday. It would be interesting to know why the Mint did not strike dollars that day.

    The dates/quantities are from payment receipts, not production records. They give us no information about when the listed coins were struck. >>




    Good point, my bad image
  • LewyLewy Posts: 594
    Summarizing the original newspaper report would be an exercise in futility Garrynot. The reporter story was a byproduct of the Acme Bologna Company. For any part of that story to be true, first strike would have to have happened on February 28th 1878, instead of a week and a half later.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,879 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I believe that the number 303, representing the number of VAM 9's minted is not correct. There are too many known examples out there to justify that number. >>


    I agree. Larry Briggs alone probably has a couple dozen right now and has handled dozens more. They are by no means common, or even somewhat common, but the 303 number just feels too low to me.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Does anyone have a PDF of the original newspaper article? I've searched several newspaper archives and find nothing giving an account of the first day.

    A brief article in the NY Times/via Philadelphia Inquirer dated March 12, 1878, says that $30,000 were struck on the 11th , and the $23,000 has been inspected and ready for release.
  • LewyLewy Posts: 594
    As far as the newspaper article goes, consider 'all' of this:

    In October 1877, Linderman ordered Pollock to instruct both Barber and Morgan to "prepare without delay" designs for a silver dollar.

    The completed pattern silver dollars were delivered to Linderman in December 1877, and design selected. In January 1878, the working hubs were completed.

    In January and February 1878 Linderman instructed that minor alterations be made to the hubs.

    A portion of a letter from Linderman to Pollock dated February 21 st 1878, read:

    "It is the desire of the Secretary of the Treasury, as well as my own, that if the silver bill becomes law, the coinage of silver dollars shall be commenced with the least practicable delay and carried to the full capacity of the Mints for the execution of such coinage....."

    On February 22nd 1878, Morgan notified Linderamn that he has completed the alterations to the reverse hub, but in his opinion, those alterations have rendered the hub useless as a working hub due to the low relief achieved by cutting away of the hub design in certain areas that Linderman was unhappy with, and that actual die hubbing will take an additional 7 to 10 days to accomplish. On 25 February, he also sent a specimen of this cutaway design to Linderman for approval

    Morgan had enlisted the support and opinions of Snowden, and on February 28th, wrote to Linderman that Snowden agreed that the hub design was now thin and poor compared with what it was, and should be altered.

    I realize that folks will view this in many different ways, but I see these last two letters by Morgan to be tush coverings on Morgan's part for the impending delay in production.

    On February 28th , Linderman conceded to the expertise of Morgan and Snowden and wrote to Pollock:

    "you will instruct Mr. Morgan to finish his new working hubs, showing the alterations as speedily as may be practicable, and that immediately thereafter you will cause working dies to be made in sufficient quantity to commence striking pieces as soon as possible after the bill may become law"

    On that same day, February 28th 1878, the Bland Allison Act became law.

    The next day, March 1st 1878, Linderman evidently shifts into urgency mode and begins sending telegrams rather than letters. In the first telegram on that day, he tells Pollock that the specimen sent to him on February 25th has been approved, and to start making working hubs.

    In the next telegram on March 1st he orders Pollock:

    "commence at once the preparation of silver dollar blanks to your full capacity and get the working dies ready as soon as possible and commence striking. The full force of the Engravers Department will be applied to the preparation of silver dollars."

    In my opinion, all of this indicates that the mint was way behind the power curve and did not even have design approval until the day after they should have begun striking coins. This was despite the wishes of the Secretary of the Treasury and the Mint Director. All of this indicates to me that nobody really knew when striking could actually begin. Not a really great time to invite a reporter to hang out.

    Ceremonies are usually not spontaneous, but are scheduled events; the same with commencement activities.

    I believe that striking commenced immediately when the first die pair was delivered to the coining room from the engraving department, without pomp, ceremony or prior scheduling.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    A couple of updates/corrections:

    Morgan had enlisted the support and opinions of Snowden, and on February 28th, wrote to Linderman that Snowden agreed that the hub design was now thin and poor compared with what it was, and should be altered.

    I realize that folks will view this in many different ways, but I see these last two letters by Morgan to be tush coverings on Morgan's part for the impending delay in production.


    Snowden was Postmaster of Philadelphia, former coiner and future Superintendent, and personal friend to both Linderman and the President. His involvement was enlisted by Linderman and he made several sets of comments on the Morgan design. Morgan actually reported to Linderman, not to Pollock, and both Pollock and Willie Barber apparently resented him being a living, breathing engraver. Linderman said he picked Morgan’s designs because the relief was lower than Barber’s.

    In my opinion, all of this indicates that the mint was way behind the power curve and did not even have design approval until the day after they should have begun striking coins. This was despite the wishes of the Secretary of the Treasury and the Mint Director. All of this indicates to me that nobody really knew when striking could actually begin. Not a really great time to invite a reporter to hang out.

    The President had approved the new dollar design in December as had the Sec of Treasury. Snowden’s suggested changes came after that. Other letters discuss improvements in the design to reduce relief and to get better striking characteristics. Die life was a problem, but that had also happened with double eagles in 1877 and coiner Bosbyshell attributed this to poor steel and/or poor hardening by the mint.

    Striking the first coins does not seem to have been a planned event.

    Ceremonies are usually not spontaneous, but are scheduled events; the same with commencement activities. I believe that striking commenced immediately when the first die pair was delivered to the coining room from the engraving department, without pomp, ceremony or prior scheduling.

    Sounds reasonable.
  • LewyLewy Posts: 594
    imageRight on RWBimage
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Lewy has also encountered one of the many arguments against so-called "branch mint proofs" having been made at branch mints....secret ceremonies that never get reported anywhere, but produce these fantastic coins and nothing else.

    “Sometimes the presence of one thing can be determined by the absence of another.©”

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