When did a Doubled Die stop being a Doubled Die
mrdq
Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭
Extra fingers, dots, dashes, odd chunks on a letter miscellaneous die cracks, fills and other coin eccentricities seem to all be tossed into the DD bin in hopes of becoming spectacular coins with maybe high values.
Or is it just me.
Or is it just me.
--------T O M---------
-------------------------
0
Comments
Morgan dollar, or the 1876-CC TR$ DDR. However, the new doubled dies are about the best
that can be expected with the new die-making technology, and they do give beginners the
chance to find varieties in pocket change or by searching rolls. I can't think of a better way
for a 12 year old to become a coin collector than by finding a bunch of $5 to $10 doubled dies.
<< <i>I agree that one of the double thumb 2009 cents cannot compare to a 1972 DDO, a Hot Lips
Morgan dollar, or the 1876-CC TR$ DDR. However, the new doubled dies are about the best
that can be expected with the new die-making technology, and they do give beginners the
chance to find varieties in pocket change or by searching rolls. I can't think of a better way
for a 12 year old to become a coin collector than by finding a bunch of $5 to $10 doubled dies. >>
I still don't like them but you have a solid point, Although the DC 25c is a decent error with the new method.
<< <i>Extra fingers, dots, dashes, odd chunks on a letter miscellaneous die cracks, fills and other coin eccentricities seem to all be tossed into the DD bin in hopes of becoming spectacular coins with maybe high values.
Or is it just me. >>
This is a quote from the "The Lincoln Cent Resource" web site that directly addresses this question. More or less, "Old dogs / New Tricks"
"Some individuals have doubted that these 2009 doubled
dies are true doubled dies. The coin certification company,
NGC, has stated that they do not believe that these are
doubled dies at all, and must be ‘something else’. This belief
is largely due to a misunderstanding of the single squeeze
hubbing process. Many collectors are not aware of the fact
that most modern doubled dies are more likely to be found in
the center of the design. This is because of the fact that the
die blank is cone shaped before hubbing. Bob Piazza states
"It is not necessarily the highest point of the relief that we
address when we talk about a single squeeze doubled die.
We point to the very center of the hub where it will make the
first contact with the die blank. The die blank is conical in
shape, not flat faced. If the hub and blank are not perfectly
parallel to each other, when the hub is lowered, the very first
‘kiss’ between the two will not correctly positioned. This
initial contact begins to leave an impression on the die
blank. Continued hubbing pressure, or a realization by the
mint technicians that the two are not parallel may result in a
readjustment, slip, or snap back between the hub and die
blank. Once this has been corrected, or the snap back
occurs, continued hubbing pressure leaves the normal
impression on the die blank in addition to the impression
made by the first ‘kiss’. This is identified as a Class 8 (tilted
hub) or shifted hub (Class 9 on coppercoins.com) doubled
die."
The 2009D District of Columbia Quarter (DDR-001) is an
excellent example of this type of a center of the design
doubled die."
Look. This is a doubled die. this is what 99.9% of collectors know and recognize as a doubled die. Plain and Simple.
WASHINGTON?
George Washington? Yup. He was a Washington. he had SIX half or full brothers and sisters.................can YOU name them?????? Fame makes the Name and no way, no how...sorry to say...NO WAY NO HOW...will this 2009 extra finger thing every be a "doubled die".
sorry for the reality check.
<< <i> However, the new doubled dies are about the best that can be expected with the new die-making technology >>
And herein lies the problem. Doubled dies are collected as errors (I realize they're varieties, but in this case, the variety is a Mint screw-up, not "we decided to change the design a little"). What you've stated is that the Mint has basically gotten so good that they no longer make these errors, the famous ones, of course, being extremely obvious.
Logic, at least to me, would follow that when production gets so good as to stop making mistakes, it's declared that there are no more, rather than taking a microscope to find something just for the sake of saying the Mint is still not perfect and having another item to collect.
<< <i>"Some individuals have doubted that ...BULK DELETED BECAUSE YOU READ IT IN ABOVE POST....The 2009D District of Columbia Quarter (DDR-001) is an excellent example of this type of a center of the design doubled die." >>
All I'm saying is call it something else, stop calling these fringe errors doubled dies.
We may not be in the majority, but I'm not alone.
--------T O M---------
-------------------------
<< <i>All I'm saying is call it something else, stop calling these fringe errors doubled dies.
We may not be in the majority, but I'm not alone. >>
Maybe you're right. Since it's a single squeeze process, and the die no longer requires 2 impressions from the master die; maybe they shouldn't be called Doubled Dies.
The fact remains, they are a production error. What should they be called?
"Kiss Doubled, Tilt Doubled, Production Doubled, Die Errors"?
<< <i>
Look. This is a doubled die. this is what 99.9% of collectors know and recognize as a doubled die. Plain and Simple.
WASHINGTON?
George Washington? Yup. He was a Washington. he had SIX half or full brothers and sisters.................can YOU name them?????? Fame makes the Name and no way, no how...sorry to say...NO WAY NO HOW...will this 2009 extra finger thing every be a "doubled die".
sorry for the reality check. >>
___________________________
I do not see the point when someone posts a 1955 doubled die, and says something to the effect, this is a doubled die, plain and simple. YES, you are correct my friends, it is a doubled die, and a spectacular one. The 1955 may be the highlight of the series, but it does not solely define what a doubled die is. Today, we are in the modern minting process. The doubled dies of today are Class VIII Tilted Hub Doubling. Sure the 1955 is a classic and the 1972 too etc, but you can't go back to 1955 and these are the errors produced in modern times.
Specific to the 2009 FY doubled dies, you do not need a microscope to see them. Quite frankly, you can see the Skeleton Finger with your naked eye.
The purists however, believe that there should be separation of the lettering and/or devices that would denote a true doubled die, one that can be readily recognized and cataloged as a single DDO/DDR (take into account die deterioration/planchet preparation, etc.)
Me, I'm a purist, one who can pick up a 1961 proof set, flip it over and hopefully look through the cello to see if E PLURIBUS UNUM is doubled or not...now that's a doubled die.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Apples and oranges.
<< <i>Now here is a MUCH earlier doubled die. This is the 1854 Type 2 gold dollar, Breen 6037 which shows the lower row of beads doubled, and to a slight degree the upper row shifted also. Also visible, the L in LIBERTY has made a doubled impression to the left of of the L.
OMG , THE NERVE !!! That's been recognized as a doubled die ??
What will the PURISTS say?
...hmmm, seems as though doubling could sorta be subjective, at times.
How can a Numismatist ever concede an anomaly as minor as these are into thinking a die was doubled due to a misalignment by the operator?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Im not too sure there are many higher authorites in numismatics.....
That being said, this DDo does go unrecognized even today. NGC did not note it on the slab, though after consultation with David Lange, he informed me that on resubmission it would be noted Doubled Die Obverse.
Now, Papi, if you want to argue the point, you can either dig up Wally or take the issue up with Mr. Lange at NGC.
And before you wet your diapers.....this coin carries no premium value, even though only perhaps 300 survive.
<< <i>What about these Doubled Ears? They have a premium with collectors. But are ears less significant than fingers? Ears, fingers, ears, fingers, guess they are not doubled dies if it isn't the 1955.
...the last pic looks like lincoln has a sebaceous cyst behind his ear.
Some coin types have always commanded premiums for 'boring' varieties- Morgan and Peace dollars have some very high-dollar varieties that are every bit as dull as the extra thumbs, particularly in 8TF 8-tailfeather coins, IMHO... (Fellow VAMmers, flame away!
On the other hand, it kind of dilutes the conception of a true doubled die. You cannot search eBay or teletrade anymore without 100's of these finger splotches coming up on your screen.
Perhaps we give the doubled ear varieties too much credit. This could be because it occurs on the obverse, not withstanding the fact that it's a part of a design we've been staring at for 101 years. I think the difference between the ear and the fingers is that most of the doubled ears you can look at and actually "see" the doubled image. While some of the fingers are interesting, it's still a little mushy and unclear.
There are many cool doubled dies produced in the single squeeze era and some are worthy of a serious collection.
I dont think they all have to look like a 1955 or 1972, but 2009's just dont do it for me.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>What about these Doubled Ears? They have a premium with collectors. But are ears less significant than fingers? Ears, fingers, ears, fingers, guess they are not doubled dies if it isn't the 1955.
Your 100% right, the double ear cent is pretty stupid.
I think the poster above is correct, it's a reaction to the fact there will be no key dates again so collector scramble to find something that sets their collection apart. even if it is a stupid little die squiggile
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Off to bed to ponder these and many other important things.
--------T O M---------
-------------------------
When it's tripled?
<< <i>Papi, I know your pushing the Lincoln "extra finger" what are there, 113 varieties now?
How can a Numismatist ever concede an anomaly as minor as these are into thinking a die was doubled due to a misalignment by the operator? >>
Really, I'm not pushing anything other than some open-minded discussion on a modern error.
I don't think I need to convince anyone, as if I have some sort of agenda. All the well known variety attributors have recognized these as doubled dies.
I even acknowledged that perhaps it's time for new terminology.
What difference does it make how many varieties are known? Maybe some find it overwhelming...ok
But the number of varieties attributed are being used to diminish the overall collectibility of the major ones. This is just an excuse for purists to discount them altogether. To imply that someone is not a numismatist for even recognizing these is wrong; sorry.
I have no interest in having 113. There are 12 or 13 that are significant, and those are the ones I choose to collect.
In case anyone needs to be reminded.
Numismatist (Business / Professions) a person who studies or collects coins, medals, etc.
I must have missed the definitions for "Real Numismatist" & "True Numismatist"
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In my opinion double dies are double dies. The only difference is old ones or new ones. I would suggest everyone needs to adjust their thinking instead of arguing which is better.
<< <i>In my opinion double dies are double dies. The only difference is old ones or new ones. I would suggest everyone needs to adjust their thinking instead of arguing which is better. >>
Doubled Die means (to me) the DIE WAS DOUBLED so the planchet it struck had shadow images or duplicate images. I agree with messydesk that people need to differentiate between strike doubling and DOUBLED DIE strikes. There seems to be another whole area with the fingers, leaves, and various other cuds that are legitimate interesting flaws but they're NOT DOUBLED DIES.
--------T O M---------
-------------------------
<< <i>There seems to be another whole area with the fingers, leaves, and various other cuds that are legitimate interesting flaws but they're NOT DOUBLED DIES. >>
So what is this?
Bob Piazza states
"It is not necessarily the highest point of the relief that we
address when we talk about a single squeeze doubled die.
We point to the very center of the hub where it will make the
first contact with the die blank. The die blank is conical in
shape, not flat faced. If the hub and blank are not perfectly
parallel to each other, when the hub is lowered, the very first
‘kiss’ between the two will not correctly positioned. This
initial contact begins to leave an impression on the die
blank. Continued hubbing pressure, or a realization by the
mint technicians that the two are not parallel may result in a
readjustment, slip, or snap back between the hub and die
blank. Once this has been corrected, or the snap back
occurs, continued hubbing pressure leaves the normal
impression on the die blank in addition to the impression
made by the first ‘kiss’. This is identified as a Class 8 (tilted
hub) or shifted hub (Class 9 on coppercoins.com) doubled
die."
The 2009D District of Columbia Quarter (DDR-001) is an
excellent example of this type of a center of the design
doubled die."
And this?
Exhibits dramatic doubling of an extra index to include partial middle finger remnants.
Transparency superimposed over the doubling remnants match to the overlay.
To me, these new (since the single squeeze method was adopted by the Mints) are nothing but "artifacts" created by this process and has nothing to do with a complete failure of the operator of the press to align the working die to the master die for the next squeeze. Theses types on anomalies would have continued with future coinage, but I'm certain the Mint's QA is going over these working dies with a fine tooth comb and are rejecting anything not up to specs.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i> a complete failure of the operator of the press to align the working die to the master die for the next squeeze. >>
Isn't that the whole point?
There is no next squeeze
<< <i>
<< <i> a complete failure of the operator of the press to align the working die to the master die for the next squeeze. >>
Isn't that the whole point?
There is no next squeeze >>
And it was through those subsequent squeezes (more than just one) that all those "doubled dies" were created. How can you double designs in conjunction with letters, on a single squeeze method...it's nothing more than a "kiss", an artifact left from the master die, just before the pressure increases to form the elements.
We seem to be going in circles here.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I have to go with the professionals on this.
ANACS, and the die attributors, are calling them doubled dies.
I'm looking at the quarter. I see double letters.
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>i blame Ken Potter (and so should you)
That made me chuckle
My Dad used to call me Chucklehead...Com'er Chucklehead...where ya going now Chucklehead? You Chucklehead! He did not call me Chucklehead when I left his handsaw out over night in the wet grass...it was Da**it Son, what in tarnation is wrong with you boy, git me a switch and go over there and drop yer britches.
My Dad liked doubled die coins too and this was during their heyday...we looked through countless rolls of 1955 cents looking for the holy grail. We found about 15 "Poor Mans" doubled dies, but narry a legit one.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>i blame Ken Potter (and so should you)
heh
<< <i>In my opinion double dies are double dies. The only difference is old ones or new ones. I would suggest everyone needs to adjust their thinking instead of arguing which is better. >>
Lets go back to this guys and quit squabbling over it!
<< <i>
<< <i>In my opinion double dies are double dies. The only difference is old ones or new ones. I would suggest everyone needs to adjust their thinking instead of arguing which is better. >>
Lets go back to this guys and quit squabbling over it! >>
BRAVO
Problem is simply minor vs. major.
With the Dinoscope and internet these extremely minor doubled dies are being blown up(literally) and promoted far beyond their real levels of significance.
Some quick money is made on Ebay with initial discovery/reports followed by a long slide to oblivion..................
<< <i>When did a Doubled Die stop being a Doubled Die??
Problem is simply minor vs. major.
With the Dinoscope and internet these extremely minor doubled dies are being blown up(literally) and promoted far beyond their real levels of significance.
Some quick money is made on Ebay with initial discovery/reports followed by a long slide to oblivion.................. >>
If you are not interested then read some other thread. We are still interested as oblivion has not come to us yet.
That garage full of 114 versions of Lincoln DDRs making you lose sleep or is your dinoscope on the blink??
<< <i>A little sensitive aren't we?? That garage full of 114 versions of Lincoln DDRs making you lose sleep or is your dinoscope on the blink?? >>
Let's get real.
Even if there were only one, two, or three 2009 Lincoln DDRs. The purists would still be saying it's not doubled die.
So what difference does it make how many there are? What's the point in continuing to press the issue about the quantity attributed?
I simply was saying we have a world where everyone has a dinoscope and some very, very minor DDO and DDRs are being discovered.
BTW, that last point alone is perhaps the greatest unspoken truth as to why this piece will never 'catch on'. Public awareness needs to be present in order for any mint error to have value. The few hundred collectors who read this (and other) message boards, and the subscribers to a few coin magazines...are the only people aware of this minor variety. It is not being picked out of circulation by Mr. Joe Average in his change from Dunkin Donuts. If we go back to the summer of 1972, the publicity surrounding the doubled die cent was omnipresent. I lived through it, and indeed I was a roll searcher then and found this one. Now it is a PCGS MS63RB
I'm certainly not knocking what anyone collects, but the fact that a coin was struck with a doubled die does not automatically make it desirable to a large number of people, and therefore valuable.
I think what we're seeing with the extra thumbs is the same thing that occurred with the extra trees and some of the other varieties of late- prices are high on eBay because of speculators and flippers, and then fall rapidly because the people who want to collect them have them, and they are easily available from the flippers and speculators. The variety doesn't catch on not only because it's not featured on CNN or USA Today, but also because it just doesn't have the 'wow' factor that old-school variety collectors like myself want to see. The impact of this on the hobby concers me, as inexperienced collectors may buy the variety from the eBay listing with 'RARE L@@K!' in the title, or the Coin World ad with the big bold font, only to find in a few months that the variety never caught on and isn't worth what they paid. That's the kind of bad taste that turns people away from coin collecting, and we desperately need new blood in the hobby.
Just my opinions- flame away...