"NEW IMAGE" 1909VDB 1C grades PCGS PR67+RB
BWRC
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Highest graded 1909VDB MPL 1C all colors **RD/RB/BN** at PCGS, Congratulations to the "McCullagh Collection"
Here is a more true to color image of the amazing V.D.B. "imaged by BluCC Photos"
Here is a more true to color image of the amazing V.D.B. "imaged by BluCC Photos"
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
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Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
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Congratulations!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Very pretty coin
That coin in hand is nicer than its picture. The photographer can only try; numismatic beauty can be devilishly difficult to capture. A one-time NGC PR68RB (WITH a star for exceptional eye appeal) that PCGS refused to cross at 68 on more than one occasion, it was a no-brainer to get the plus, which simultaneously is likely a virtual death sentence on the chances of ever getting PCGS to call it a 68.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
As long as the numismatic market is healthy, that coin will always be a centerpiece with growing value!~
GORGEOUS coin no doubt
BUT
Is it still a "$200k '+' " (no pun intended) coin?
So: NGC as PR68RB* with CAC green sticker = PCGS 67RB+ sans sticker (or will it be sent to CAC for a gold bean now that the numerical slab grade is "only" 67?)
I'd personally still prefer a properly graded all there 66RD (& CERETAINLY any 67RD) over it.
Have you ever seen this coin in hand?
You might come to a different conclusion if you did
Edited to add: I have seen the two PCGS PR67RD's in hand so I have a pretty good idea on how these 3 coins would stack up against each other.
The finest known and still a pop one. Can't beat that!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Thanks everyone,
Anyone who want's to see this coin could do so by attending next years FUN show and maybe a couple other PR67RD VDB's along with it.
Interesting how on a crossover from a grade of NGC PF68RB* with a CAC green sticker [thus according to CAC's opinion the coin is of superior quality for the assigned grade] to PCGS, the coin did not receive a 68 grade.
Instead it received a PF67RB+
Next it might be sent to CAC in an attempt to obtain a CAC sticker [opining that it is of superior quality for the assigned grade of 67+]. If it is submitted to CAC I wonder what it will do?
I also wonder how likely or unlikely it is that a coin such as this MPL [or another high profile coin like a 1933 Double Eagle or a 1913 Liberty Nickel] would take a trip through any grading company [PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc.] without the coin being evaluated by upper management, with upper management giving consideration to factors beyond the mere "technical grade" of the coin before assiging it a grade [i.e. market grade, possibility of the coin turning in the holder and becoming a liability to the company, market perception of the coin receiving a particular grade, what the other TPG's assigned grade is, etc.]?
For this coin there are so many different facets to it [the NGC numerical grade, the NCG *, the CAC sticker, the PCGS numerical grade and the PCGS +] that it makes my head ache.
I do like looking at the picture of the coin though and wish that one day I can see it in person.
<< <i>Gorgeous coin. No doubt.
Interesting how on a crossover from a grade of NGC PF68RB* with a CAC green sticker [thus according to CAC's opinion the coin is of superior quality for the assigned grade] to PCGS, the coin did not receive a 68 grade.
Instead it received a PF67RB+
Next it might be sent to CAC in an attempt to obtain a CAC sticker [opining that it is of superior quality for the assigned grade of 67+]. If it is submitted to CAC I wonder what it will do?
I also wonder how likely or unlikely it is that a coin such as this MPL [or another high profile coin like a 1933 Double Eagle or a 1913 Liberty Nickel] would take a trip through any grading company [PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc.] without the coin being evaluated by upper management, with upper management giving consideration to factors beyond the mere "technical grade" of the coin before assiging it a grade [i.e. market grade, possibility of the coin turning in the holder and becoming a liability to the company, market perception of the coin receiving a particular grade, what the other TPG's assigned grade is, etc.]?
For this coin there are so many different facets to it [the NGC numerical grade, the NCG *, the CAC sticker, the PCGS numerical grade and the PCGS +] that it makes my head ache.
I do like looking at the picture of the coin though and wish that one day I can see it in person. >>
In the case of THIS particular coin, the grading determination is definately political. I do believe that the 2 PR67RD coins currently in PCGS holders are part of this political determination. Should those coins be graded PR67+RD? We may find out sooner or later. JMHO. Steve
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<< <i>Original Thread
So: NGC as PR68RB* with CAC green sticker = PCGS 67RB+ sans sticker (or will it be sent to CAC for a gold bean now that the numerical slab grade is "only" 67?) >>
Very interesting point. If CAC gave it a green sticker in a 68* holder, don't they HAVE to put a gold sticker on it if resubmitted now. Logically, they've boxed that into a corner because they don't differentiate between PCGS or NGC. Comments......
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Don't see how anyone has to do anything - once a coin is broken out of a holder, all bets are off all the way around.
Wondercoin
<< <i>If possible, I would like to have it explained as to why it made sense to crack the coin out of an NGC-PR68RB holder in the first place? I have an early date NGC-MS68 Silver Washington quarter as well as an NGC-MS66 1932-S Quarter and unless PCGS would grade these coins at the same grade, I would never consider crossing them down a point (even for the plus). But, I am open to an argument that my 32-S quarter would make sense in a PCGS-MS65+ holder or that MS68 quarter down to an MS67+ (pop 1 at PCGS). To this point, I have just felt I would be leaving way too much money on the table. Is the 09vbd different than say my 32-S quarter (other than being worth 6x ot 7x as much)? Seriously interested in your thoughts.
Wondercoin >>
The 2 reasons:
1. PCGS Set Registry, no NGC's allowed.
2. PCGS brand: It's a well known fact that copper small cents can bring substantially more money than their NGC counterparts of same date, grade, and color. In MSRD Indian Head cents, PCGS MS67RD's sell for more money than NGC MS68RD IH cents.
Edited to add: In the MPL cent market peak here are the top prices paid for 1909VDB MPL cents in (PCGS RB holders) Being a specialist in the series I can say these are fairly accurate mumbers. I have ADDED NGC coins in same RB grade to the right of the PCGS coins.
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR64RB there is a heritage archive of a coin going for $40,250 in 2009 POP 24/32 ******(NGC PF64RB January 2009 $16,100)
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR65RB there was a "OGH" holder coin that sold in 2008 for $63,000 POP 24/8 ******(NGC PF 65RB January 2009 $17,250)**(NGC PF65RB March 2009 $25,300)
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR66RB there was a coin sold in the summer of 2008 for around $110,000 POP 7/1 ******(NGC PF 66RB June 2008 $63,250)
1909 VDB MPL Cent PCGS PR66+RB no coin is graded at this level. POP 0/1
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR67RB no coin is graded at this level POP 0/1
1909VDB MPL cent PCGS PR67+RB this coin sold for $200,000+ in March of 2010. POP 1/0
While I understand the need for MPL lincolns to reside in pcgs holders I find your price comparison to be very one sided. I agree and I think just about everyone would that 99% of the time a MPL will sell for more in a pcgs holder even if it is one grade lower. A quick example, I had a nice 1916 MPL that resided in an ngc pr66 RB holder, I tried to cross the coin to a pcgs 66 Rb but it would not cross. I took it to one of the major shows and not one dealer even gave the coin a second look when it resided in the ngc holder. I did a quick show special and crossed the coin at a 65 RB, the coin sold at the show for more than I was asking when it resided in the ngc 66 rb holder.
I think your comparison is a little off however. Your first example
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR64RB there is a heritage archive of a coin going for $40,250 in 2009 POP 24/32 ******(NGC PF64RB January 2009 $16,100)
The pcgs coin was a much much better example while the ngc coin was a complete DOG!
Here is the pcgs coin.
Here is the ngc coin
You cant really compare those two coins, the pcgs coin is far superior than the ngc coin. Just based on eye appeal alone the pcgs coin would pull more even if it resided in an ngc holder.
Your second example is similar to the first.
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR65RB there was a "OGH" holder coin that sold in 2008 for $63,000 POP 24/8 ******(NGC PF 65RB January 2009 $17,250)**(NGC PF65RB March 2009 $25,300)
NGC PF 65RB January 2009 $17,250- This coin once again was a dog as seen below.
I was unable to find the pcgs coin that you are refering to but I would venture to guess its much better than the ngc counterpart as seen above. Not to mention the pcgs example resided in an OGH and in some cases the OGH will pull a premium although I am not sure that was the case this time just something else to further the gap in price.
Your next example,
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR66RB there was a coin sold in the summer of 2008 for around $110,000 POP 7/1 ******(NGC PF 66RB June 2008 $63,250)
I was unable to locate the PCGS coin you refer to but here is the ngc coin and two other pcgs coins that although sold roughly a year apart both pcgs coins sold for far less then the ngc coins.
Ngc coin that sold for 63,250 in 2008- now although the two pcgs coins were sold in 2006 and the ngc coin in 2008 its still a pretty big jump in price.
Pcgs coin #1 sold in may of 2006 for 29,900
Pcgs coin #2 sold in feb 2006 for 25,300
Now in this case some may argue the NGC coin has more eye appeal and although in the "wrong" holder still brought more money then the average PCGS coin.
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR67RB no coin is graded at this level POP 0/1
1909 VDB MPL Cent PCGS PR66+RB no coin is graded at this level. POP 0/1- IMO pointing out plus populations is just silly this early in the game, alot of MPL collectors could care less about the pcgs plus and wont ever resubmit the coins although they may be a lock plus grade. I think maybe in a few years after collectors and dealers alike get used to the plus system and really have a chance to submit some coins then maybe we can look at the pcgs plus pops and find out what may be considered a rarity.
1909VDB MPL cent PCGS PR67+RB this coin sold for $200,000+ in March of 2010. POP 1/0- This coin never sold as you are stating. The coin sold while residing in a pcgs 67 RB holder after being crossed and downgraded from an ngc 68 holder. The coin also sold privatly through a specialized dealer "you" who specializes in matte proofs, I dont think comparing auction prices to private sale through a specialized dealer prices is an accurate way to analize the market. Its well known that specialized knowledgeable dealers will generally get much stronger prices then heritage or other major auction houses due to their specific clients, reputation and reccomendation. Collectors will search you out specifically when looking for matte proofs and will pay more to purchase a coin through you based on your vast knowlege of the series therefore I would personaly always excpect your coins to fetch higher prices the auction prices. I know I searched you out when looking for a matter proof and I paid you more based on your opinion and I have been happy with the coin ever since.
You could also use legend as another example of a dealer who will always pull much more then any auction due to their reputation and knowlege as well as there client base.
I agree that in most cases pcgs matte proofs will sell for more then ngc matte proofs but I think if you are going to point out examples then the examples used should be an accurate comparison rather then comparing a nice clean coin to a dog of a coin.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Brian,
While I understand the need for MPL lincolns to reside in pcgs holders I find your price comparison to be very one sided. I agree and I think just about everyone would that 99% of the time a MPL will sell for more in a pcgs holder even if it is one grade lower. A quick example, I had a nice 1916 MPL that resided in an ngc pr66 RB holder, I tried to cross the coin to a pcgs 66 Rb but it would not cross. I took it to one of the major shows and not one dealer even gave the coin a second look when it resided in the ngc holder. I did a quick show special and crossed the coin at a 65 RB, the coin sold at the show for more than I was asking when it resided in the ngc 66 rb holder.
I think your comparison is a little off however. Your first example
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR64RB there is a heritage archive of a coin going for $40,250 in 2009 POP 24/32 ******(NGC PF64RB January 2009 $16,100)
The pcgs coin was a much much better example while the ngc coin was a complete DOG!
Here is the pcgs coin.
Here is the ngc coin
You cant really compare those two coins, the pcgs coin is far superior than the ngc coin. Just based on eye appeal alone the pcgs coin would pull more even if it resided in an ngc holder.
Your second example is similar to the first.
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR65RB there was a "OGH" holder coin that sold in 2008 for $63,000 POP 24/8 ******(NGC PF 65RB January 2009 $17,250)**(NGC PF65RB March 2009 $25,300)
NGC PF 65RB January 2009 $17,250- This coin once again was a dog as seen below.
I was unable to find the pcgs coin that you are refering to but I would venture to guess its much better than the ngc counterpart as seen above. Not to mention the pcgs example resided in an OGH and in some cases the OGH will pull a premium although I am not sure that was the case this time just something else to further the gap in price.
Your next example,
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR66RB there was a coin sold in the summer of 2008 for around $110,000 POP 7/1 ******(NGC PF 66RB June 2008 $63,250)
I was unable to locate the PCGS coin you refer to but here is the ngc coin and two other pcgs coins that although sold roughly a year apart both pcgs coins sold for far less then the ngc coins.
Ngc coin that sold for 63,250 in 2008- now although the two pcgs coins were sold in 2006 and the ngc coin in 2008 its still a pretty big jump in price.
Pcgs coin #1 sold in may of 2006 for 29,900
Pcgs coin #2 sold in feb 2006 for 25,300
Now in this case some may argue the NGC coin has more eye appeal and although in the "wrong" holder still brought more money then the average PCGS coin.
1909 VDB MPL cent PCGS PR67RB no coin is graded at this level POP 0/1
1909 VDB MPL Cent PCGS PR66+RB no coin is graded at this level. POP 0/1- IMO pointing out plus populations is just silly this early in the game, alot of MPL collectors could care less about the pcgs plus and wont ever resubmit the coins although they may be a lock plus grade. I think maybe in a few years after collectors and dealers alike get used to the plus system and really have a chance to submit some coins then maybe we can look at the pcgs plus pops and find out what may be considered a rarity.
1909VDB MPL cent PCGS PR67+RB this coin sold for $200,000+ in March of 2010. POP 1/0- This coin never sold as you are stating. The coin sold while residing in a pcgs 67 RB holder after being crossed and downgraded from an ngc 68 holder. The coin also sold privatly through a specialized dealer "you" who specializes in matte proofs, I dont think comparing auction prices to private sale through a specialized dealer prices is an accurate way to analize the market. Its well known that specialized knowledgeable dealers will generally get much stronger prices then heritage or other major auction houses due to their specific clients, reputation and reccomendation. Collectors will search you out specifically when looking for matte proofs and will pay more to purchase a coin through you based on your vast knowlege of the series therefore I would personaly always excpect your coins to fetch higher prices the auction prices. I know I searched you out when looking for a matter proof and I paid you more based on your opinion and I have been happy with the coin ever since.
You could also use legend as another example of a dealer who will always pull much more then any auction due to their reputation and knowlege as well as there client base.
I agree that in most cases pcgs matte proofs will sell for more then ngc matte proofs but I think if you are going to point out examples then the examples used should be an accurate comparison rather then comparing a nice clean coin to a dog of a coin. >>
Chris,
I remember your 1916 PF66RB MPL in the NGC holder, you and I talked at the show and we came to the conclusion that you should cross the coin down to PCGS PR65RB. As you said, once you did you sold the coin immediately as no one was interested in the coin in the prior holder. This confirms another example of the "Power of PCGS"
In my selection of prices of PCGS/NGC auction records, I used "auction prices realized" from PCGS coin facts and went back (2) years. Those are the examples that are there concerning both holders. All the prices are posted for the last two years in my reply to Wondercoin. I have no control as to the quality of the coins in the holder. I was only pointing out the facts per the auction records. Prices of coins sold in 2006 are not relevant as the MPL market rise had not started at that time. The MPL market started taking off in the summer of 2007 and peaked in the summer of 2008. Lots of prices held firm into 2009.
BW
I have examined the two 67RD specimens, I like this coin better for the color and luster.
This coin also tracks it roots to the John Story Jenks collection which sold in December of 1921.
Jenks collected from around 1851 through 1919, if you ever get the see the 6 pound auction
catelogue, it is jaw dropping the treasures which are inside.
One thing I learned from studying Jenks is that he knew how to preserve coins.
I have seen other sets, such as the JP Morgan proofs which are in the ANS, most of which
have been cleaned.
The Jenks coins are perfect original examples.
There were complete proof sets from 1856 through 1916 in the catelogue, I believe one person purchased
the 1892 through 1916, and sold through Stacks in 1992, many of the coins receiving PR69 status,
changing the concept of perfect coins.
From Jenks, I have learned that taking care of your coins and preserving them properly is almost as important as
buying the highest quality coins.
This coin speaks for itself and is the result of over 100 years of perfect preservation.
Kevin
Thanks for the post. I am glad to see someone who "has seen" these three PCGS PR67 VDB's in hand make comments about the coins. You and I share the same opinion about the 3 coins.
I don't believe a person should make a judgement call about a coin based on an internet image.
People who attend next years FUN show will hopefully see the "1909VDB Matte Proof Lincoln Showdown" at the PCGS table. Stewart has given the nod as well as Jonathan. The invitation is out to the "Thomas Irwin Collection" if they would like to enter their PR67RD in the "showdown."
BW
Also, imho (and I think many would agree), a coin's value is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, no matter whether it was sold through a broker, auction, or private sale. I also believe that people like Brian and Kevin who have a lot more personal experience with MPL's than most of us and who take the time and great effort to study, research, and then actually write/publish their work about this series deserves our respect and admiration. Without them, we would not have all the knowledge, information, and understanding we have on this series.
It is beneficial to us all to question what we don't understand, and it is very helpful to everyone to provide positive dicussion and input, especially if it's done in a non-destructive manner. Brian knows this series and the MPL market inside and out - and being a dealer in this series does not diminish or taint his knowledge and experience, it only enhances it and gives him additional perspective. I for one am grateful to have people who are willing to take their own time to share their knowledge and research, and I wouldn't want them to ever quit or give up just because they or their work is continually challenged and not appreciated.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>Without a doubt getting the coin into a PCGS holder was the right decision. The coin may not be in a 68 holder but it is still a top pop coin, so I guess nothing really changed. When someone spends $200K on a coin you have to look at is a business decision. IMO having the coin in an NGC holder could have been a liability at the time of sale. I can see the converation from a potential buyer, I would pay $X "BUT" it's in the wrong holder. Lets be realistic when someone spends that kind of money, plastic does matter. Brian, if I were your customer I would be VERY satisfied! >>
Thanks Joe,
You hit the nail on the head without writing a page doing it
Brian
<< <i>I agree with Kevin, the coin absolutely speaks for itself. I too saw this coin in hand and it is truly a beautiful monster and the nicest MPL I've ever seen.
Also, imho (and I think many would agree), a coin's value is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, no matter whether it was sold through a broker, auction, or private sale. I also believe that people like Brian and Kevin who have a lot more personal experience with MPL's than most of us and who take the time and great effort to study, research, and then actually write/publish their work about this series deserves our respect and admiration. Without them, we would not have all the knowledge, information, and understanding we have on this series.
It is beneficial to us all to question what we don't understand, and it is very helpful to everyone to provide positive dicussion and input, especially if it's done in a non-destructive manner. Brian knows this series and the MPL market inside and out - and being a dealer in this series does not diminish or taint his knowledge and experience, it only enhances it and gives him additional perspective. I for one am grateful to have people who are willing to take their own time to share their knowledge and research, and I wouldn't want them to ever quit or give up just because they or their work is continually challenged and not appreciated. >>
Oh jesus,
I dont think anyone said their work was not appreciated, nor did anyone say that because he is a dealer that his knowledge was tainted.
<< <i>I agree with Kevin, the coin absolutely speaks for itself. I too saw this coin in hand and it is truly a beautiful monster and the nicest MPL I've ever seen.
Also, imho (and I think many would agree), a coin's value is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, no matter whether it was sold through a broker, auction, or private sale. I also believe that people like Brian and Kevin who have a lot more personal experience with MPL's than most of us and who take the time and great effort to study, research, and then actually write/publish their work about this series deserves our respect and admiration. Without them, we would not have all the knowledge, information, and understanding we have on this series.
It is beneficial to us all to question what we don't understand, and it is very helpful to everyone to provide positive dicussion and input, especially if it's done in a non-destructive manner. Brian knows this series and the MPL market inside and out - and being a dealer in this series does not diminish or taint his knowledge and experience, it only enhances it and gives him additional perspective. I for one am grateful to have people who are willing to take their own time to share their knowledge and research, and I wouldn't want them to ever quit or give up just because they or their work is continually challenged and not appreciated. >>
Charmy,
Thanks for your kind thoughts,
Brian
Congratulations Jon and Anne!
<< <i>If possible, I would like to have it explained as to why it made sense to crack the coin out of an NGC-PR68RB holder in the first place? I have an early date NGC-MS68 Silver Washington quarter as well as an NGC-MS66 1932-S Quarter and unless PCGS would grade these coins at the same grade, I would never consider crossing them down a point (even for the plus). But, I am open to an argument that my 32-S quarter would make sense in a PCGS-MS65+ holder or that MS68 quarter down to an MS67+ (pop 1 at PCGS). To this point, I have just felt I would be leaving way too much money on the table. Is the 09vbd different than say my 32-S quarter (other than being worth 6x ot 7x as much)? Seriously interested in your thoughts.
Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin
In reference to your NGC coins. I do not follow your logic. If the coins are solid NGC 66/68 coins I would expect that NGC would regrade them the same at least 70%
of the time, no? Therefore, if I was the owner of those 2 coins I would consider cracking and submitting to PCGS. If PCGS graded them less than desired send them back to NGC. If however they are marginal for the grade then keep them in the NGC holder.
Whether it is graded PCGS or NGC... it is a dangerous practice to crack out a finest known 1932-S MS66 graded quarter (even if properly graded).
But, I see where you are coming from.
Wondercoin
<< <i>That image doesnt even come close to that coin in hand. That coin is simply a monster. I dont see the point of a plus grade on that coin however, That coin is a 68 IMO and if I was the owner I would hae simply sent it in for a regrade until pcgs decided to correctly grade the coin. I think I would have sent the coin to cac first and attempted a gold cac sticker, IMO the gold CAC sticker would mean much more then a plus grade and if the time ever came to sell that coin I think the market would have confirmed that as well. >>
.....each time it go's in for a regrade -the possibility exists that it might get sneezed on or obtain a fingerprint ;
not probable I give you as i'm sure the TPG's are as careful as humanly possible - but it could happen
Wow! Nice!!!!!!
I crossed a 1841 cent, NGC proof 65 RB to a PCGS proof 63 RB last year. Not amusing at all. I would expect at least a point deduction (again, which is the point), but two was a little unnerving.
PCGS is simply the gold standard in grading.
<< <i>In other words the NGC coin that's graded the same as the PCGS coin can't be compared because it's a dog. Well, if it's a dog then how did it end up in the NGC holder with the same grade as PCGS? Kinda proves the point.
I crossed a 1841 cent, NGC proof 65 RB to a PCGS proof 63 RB last year. Not amusing at all. I would expect at least a point deduction (again, which is the point), but two was a little unnerving.
PCGS is simply the gold standard in grading. >>
Not to be a jerk, but how do you know that your 1841 PR63 RB is not now undergraded? To put it in line with this thread, why is Jon's 1909 MPL VDB NOT a 68? Who says that NGC had it wrong to begin with? I've seen the coin in-hand, and if it's not a PR '68' RB, I honestly don't know what is.
PCGS grading may or may not be more 'accurate' than non-PCGS grading - that's been my experience. It's very dependent and situational, IMHO.
They are consistantly conservative on copper though, that's for sure.
Me personally, I would have left if in the NGC holder. It deserves better than a PR67RB.