<< <i>If any members of the PCGS message boards strongly believe that this item is genuine, please say so and provide at least one concrete reason. Either a private message or a public post would be very much welcome. Likewise, if someone could point to specific features of the item that indicates that it is forgery, please communicate. So far, I have read many vague conjectures. If solid arguments were presented, then I may wish to write about this item and quote experts. It is odd that there is so much speculation and so little apparent evidence. I admit that I have never seen it. Have many contributors to this thread actually examined it?
<< <i>So.....why can't they match up the obverse with other obverses for the year similar to the way they match up fingerprints? >>
Sounds like it might not be all that easy...
"Okay, let’s do some simple math. Walter Breen states in his Encyclopedia that die life for Lincoln cents produced during this period was around 700,000 coins per die (page 233). Mintage for 1958-D cents (it being reasonable to assume the reverse die would have been a 1958-D) was 800,953,000 divided by 700,000 coins per die equals approximately 1,145 dies. Now, let’s do the obverse die, 1959-D mintage was 1,279,760,000 divided by 700,000 equals 1,828 obverse dies. Well, while daunting, the task at hand is not insurmountable! Examining circulated coins will not work (I tried that), as the die lines quickly disappear after limited circulation. Thus, this endeavor will best be completed by purchasing bags and bags of 1958-D cents (about $5 per roll of 50 coins) and bags and even more bags of 1959-D cents (about $1 per roll) and quick examination of the coins will hopefully produce an exact match to the unique die lines seen as a signature on this coin."
Looking for two particular dies out of about 3,000? Now, suppose that one or the other of the dies (or both!) *didn't* strike the average amount of coins noted above. The job gets even harder. >>
Bummer! Sounds like it can't be done without the human factor. But who would take on such a task if they couldn't profit from it or break even for that matter?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Sounds like it would be worth somebody's while to run a full page ad in Coin World and Numismatic news showing the relevant die polish and offering a suitable reward for the first normal coin with either one of those dies.
I cannot state that either of the two pieces is no good because of "xxxx." At this point all I can cite is a gut feeling.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The fact that it hasn't been die matched yet is the most significant finding here.
Not really. If the coin is real, one of the most likely scenarios for its creation is that the coin was struck at the Mint sometime after 1959. If that's the case, two old dies would have needed to come out of retirement, and a quick and sloppy cleaning of the old dies could account for the die lines exhibited on the coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Sounds like it would be worth somebody's while to run a full page ad in Coin World and Numismatic news showing the relevant die polish and offering a suitable reward for the first normal coin with either one of those dies.
I cannot state that either of the two pieces is no good because of "xxxx." At this point all I can cite is a gut feeling.
TD >>
From my limited experience from searching $200 Jefferson nickel bags from that era, there weren't that many die pairings, perhaps 3 to 4 in a bag. Unless new bags surfaced for such a study, I'd imagine they would need to come from different parts of the country. It would also be impossible to track down certified examples that usually come in from many parts of the country. But your solution would be the most feasible if it got everyone's attention to make them look or have their coins examined by someone in their part of the country who knew what to look for. The pictures provided in the OP's post wouldn't do, that's for sure!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
As mentioned in my May 10th post, I've seen the coin in-hand, examined it closely, as as others have said, it just isn't right. It doesn't 'look' right, and it doesn't 'smell' right, visually.
It can be discussed till the cows come home, but the fact remains that not one experienced numismatist of any type has said the coin is genuine.
We ALL believe it's a counterfeit.
Buyer Beware
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>The fact that it hasn't been die matched yet is the most significant finding here.
Not really. If the coin is real, one of the most likely scenarios for its creation is that the coin was struck at the Mint sometime after 1959. If that's the case, two old dies would have needed to come out of retirement, and a quick and sloppy cleaning of the old dies could account for the die lines exhibited on the coin. >>
Any chance it could have been made in 1958? Knowing that the reverse was to change a mint worker just taps in the next years date on a die? Probably not likely but tossing it out there...
<< <i>it does not have the right 'look' or visual 'smell' in my view.
FredWeinberg, I hope you didn't start a new fad as now collectors may start coming up to your table at shows to sniff your inventory >>
Check with PCGS. They have an app for that........
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
For those who point to the government report, where does it say "This coin is a genuine mint produced product?" It talks about alot of things that point to the coin being real, but it does not say it's real. If th government can'r prove it;s counterfeit, then they will return it, but that does not mean it's real.
Listen to Fred, JP Martin, Rick Snow and many many other that have viewed this coin.
I had a chance to buy it a few years ago, did my research and stayed away.
Think about this like one of those E-Bay auctions. Raw coin, No returns no matter what, tons of experts say it's fake, yet someone will buy it thinking they are ripping someone and might make a killing (greed)
Anyone who would buy this coin is taking a huge risk.
<< <i>So.....why can't they match up the obverse with other obverses for the year similar to the way they match up fingerprints? >>
Sounds like it might not be all that easy...
"Okay, let�s do some simple math. Walter Breen states in his Encyclopedia that die life for Lincoln cents produced during this period was around 700,000 coins per die (page 233). Mintage for 1958-D cents (it being reasonable to assume the reverse die would have been a 1958-D) was 800,953,000 divided by 700,000 coins per die equals approximately 1,145 dies. Now, let�s do the obverse die, 1959-D mintage was 1,279,760,000 divided by 700,000 equals 1,828 obverse dies. Well, while daunting, the task at hand is not insurmountable! Examining circulated coins will not work (I tried that), as the die lines quickly disappear after limited circulation. Thus, this endeavor will best be completed by purchasing bags and bags of 1958-D cents (about $5 per roll of 50 coins) and bags and even more bags of 1959-D cents (about $1 per roll) and quick examination of the coins will hopefully produce an exact match to the unique die lines seen as a signature on this coin."
Looking for two particular dies out of about 3,000? Now, suppose that one or the other of the dies (or both!) *didn't* strike the average amount of coins noted above. The job gets even harder. >>
I have not seen that mint report before. I love threads like this!
Mrpotatohead, don't forget those are averages. You might have a die strike 10 coins and get smashed and discarded. Or, it could last for 1,000,000 strikes. Some get polished and markers disappear. I still don't know if finding the dies would prove or disprove the genuineness of the coin. What does it mean if you find a coin with a corresponding obverse die used? The counterfeiter may have used a coin from that same die to produce the counterfeit coin.
It went for $27,000 plus commission. I hope for the buyer that eventually someone gives them a definative answer. I just wonder if that answer hasn't come and the auction world just doesn't know about it....
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>If any members of the PCGS message boards strongly believe that this item is genuine, please say so and provide at least one concrete reason. Either a private message or a public post would be very much welcome. Likewise, if someone could point to specific features of the item that indicates that it is forgery, please communicate. So far, I have read many vague conjectures. If solid arguments were presented, then I may wish to write about this item and quote experts. It is odd that there is so much speculation and so little apparent evidence. I admit that I have never seen it. Have many contributors to this thread actually examined it?
New column on Rarities & Related Topics >>
I have examined this one and the one that surfaced in the mid-1970's. I may be the only person who has seen both.
I did not like either one.
TD >>
What specifically didn't you like about them or was it more of a gut feeling thing?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>So.....why can't they match up the obverse with other obverses for the year similar to the way they match up fingerprints? >>
Sounds like it might not be all that easy...
"Okay, let’s do some simple math. Walter Breen states in his Encyclopedia that die life for Lincoln cents produced during this period was around 700,000 coins per die (page 233). Mintage for 1958-D cents (it being reasonable to assume the reverse die would have been a 1958-D) was 800,953,000 divided by 700,000 coins per die equals approximately 1,145 dies. Now, let’s do the obverse die, 1959-D mintage was 1,279,760,000 divided by 700,000 equals 1,828 obverse dies. Well, while daunting, the task at hand is not insurmountable! Examining circulated coins will not work (I tried that), as the die lines quickly disappear after limited circulation. Thus, this endeavor will best be completed by purchasing bags and bags of 1958-D cents (about $5 per roll of 50 coins) and bags and even more bags of 1959-D cents (about $1 per roll) and quick examination of the coins will hopefully produce an exact match to the unique die lines seen as a signature on this coin."
From here...
Looking for two particular dies out of about 3,000? Now, suppose that one or the other of the dies (or both!) *didn't* strike the average amount of coins noted above. The job gets even harder. >>
Bummer! Sounds like it can't be done without the human factor. But who would take on such a task if they couldn't profit from it or break even for that matter?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I cannot state that either of the two pieces is no good because of "xxxx." At this point all I can cite is a gut feeling.
TD
Not really. If the coin is real, one of the most likely scenarios for its creation is that the coin was struck at the Mint sometime after 1959. If that's the case, two old dies would have needed to come out of retirement, and a quick and sloppy cleaning of the old dies could account for the die lines exhibited on the coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Why is there only one?
I think the TPGs are correct in their refusal to certify the "coin."
<< <i>Sounds like it would be worth somebody's while to run a full page ad in Coin World and Numismatic news showing the relevant die polish and offering a suitable reward for the first normal coin with either one of those dies.
I cannot state that either of the two pieces is no good because of "xxxx." At this point all I can cite is a gut feeling.
TD >>
From my limited experience from searching $200 Jefferson nickel bags from that era, there weren't that many die pairings, perhaps 3 to 4 in a bag. Unless new bags surfaced for such a study, I'd imagine they would need to come from different parts of the country. It would also be impossible to track down certified examples that usually come in from many parts of the country.
But your solution would be the most feasible if it got everyone's attention to make them look or have their coins examined by someone in their part of the country who knew what to look for.
The pictures provided in the OP's post wouldn't do, that's for sure!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
the coin in-hand, examined it closely, as as
others have said, it just isn't right. It doesn't
'look' right, and it doesn't 'smell' right, visually.
It can be discussed till the cows come home,
but the fact remains that not one experienced
numismatist of any type has said the coin is
genuine.
We ALL believe it's a counterfeit.
Buyer Beware
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>The fact that it hasn't been die matched yet is the most significant finding here.
Not really. If the coin is real, one of the most likely scenarios for its creation is that the coin was struck at the Mint sometime after 1959. If that's the case, two old dies would have needed to come out of retirement, and a quick and sloppy cleaning of the old dies could account for the die lines exhibited on the coin. >>
Any chance it could have been made in 1958? Knowing that the reverse was to change a mint worker just taps in the next years date on a die? Probably not likely but tossing it out there...
FredWeinberg, I hope you didn't start a new fad as now collectors may start coming up to your table at shows to sniff your inventory
<< <i>it does not have the right 'look' or visual 'smell' in my view.
FredWeinberg, I hope you didn't start a new fad as now collectors may start coming up to your table at shows to sniff your inventory
Check with PCGS. They have an app for that........
For those who point to the government report, where does it say "This coin is a genuine mint produced product?" It talks about alot of things that point to the coin being real, but it does not say it's real. If th government can'r prove it;s counterfeit, then they will return it, but that does not mean it's real.
Listen to Fred, JP Martin, Rick Snow and many many other that have viewed this coin.
I had a chance to buy it a few years ago, did my research and stayed away.
Think about this like one of those E-Bay auctions. Raw coin, No returns no matter what, tons of experts say it's fake, yet someone will buy it thinking they are ripping someone and might make a killing (greed)
Anyone who would buy this coin is taking a huge risk.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>So.....why can't they match up the obverse with other obverses for the year similar to the way they match up fingerprints? >>
Sounds like it might not be all that easy...
"Okay, let�s do some simple math. Walter Breen states in his Encyclopedia that die life for Lincoln cents produced during this period was around 700,000 coins per die (page 233). Mintage for 1958-D cents (it being reasonable to assume the reverse die would have been a 1958-D) was 800,953,000 divided by 700,000 coins per die equals approximately 1,145 dies. Now, let�s do the obverse die, 1959-D mintage was 1,279,760,000 divided by 700,000 equals 1,828 obverse dies. Well, while daunting, the task at hand is not insurmountable! Examining circulated coins will not work (I tried that), as the die lines quickly disappear after limited circulation. Thus, this endeavor will best be completed by purchasing bags and bags of 1958-D cents (about $5 per roll of 50 coins) and bags and even more bags of 1959-D cents (about $1 per roll) and quick examination of the coins will hopefully produce an exact match to the unique die lines seen as a signature on this coin."
From here...
Looking for two particular dies out of about 3,000? Now, suppose that one or the other of the dies (or both!) *didn't* strike the average amount of coins noted above. The job gets even harder. >>
I have not seen that mint report before. I love threads like this!
Mrpotatohead, don't forget those are averages. You might have a die strike 10 coins and get smashed and discarded. Or, it could last for 1,000,000 strikes. Some get polished and markers disappear. I still don't know if finding the dies would prove or disprove the genuineness of the coin. What does it mean if you find a coin with a corresponding obverse die used? The counterfeiter may have used a coin from that same die to produce the counterfeit coin.
Great thread Mr. Eureka!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.